Rookie help has been good as long as I’ve been doing trials. The problem is that when you get kicked out (after two weeks IIRC) it’s “sink or swim” time.
As for how hard it was: comparing the last “real” trial I did (18-24 months ago) with the first (a bit over ten years) it’s no easier now.
NB: There was an NPE for my first trial, and EVE Uni’s wiki was already excellent, and everyone had a chance to learn about it via Rookie Help.
But as I said in the earlier post: EVE isn’t hard, but there’s a huge “quantity problem” with the minimum level of knowledge, leading to a ridiculously high “startup threshold”.
Simplifying a few GUIs or making the latest NPE failsafe isn’t even scratching the surface.
Or to look at it another way: EVE’s a PvE game of course, but since it has free-fire PvP combat and suicide ganking is easy, affordable, and 100% game-legal, rookies absolutely need a reasonably solid base of knowledge and experience in PvP combat.
What they get (and got in the past) is effectively nothing. It’s possible (EVE Uni, RvsB & Faction Warfare), but not enough new players do those things early on.
Which makes me reflect on an interesting contrast: bittervet haters telling rookies they’re inferior humans if they can’t PvP the EVE way - and new players who have no practical way (except being boosted) to r figure out what’s going on and how to deal with it.
BTW - and back a little close to the topic: the same applies to the “trust problem” and its effect on casual communication and interacting with other players in general. Rookies learn “never trust anyone ever” quickly. If a more nuanced message is needed, or mitigation techniques exist and can be taught, they should be helped, not criticized.
It’s 4 weeks I think, but you can always rejoin if you want. The first four weeks you get automatically placed back into the chat if you (accidentally) close it, so people cannot miss the chat.
New players have a practical way to figure out what’s going on: they can experience it themselves. Die and try to learn from it. Join a newbie corp and fly in large fleet battles from day one. Or fit some cheap frigates and lose them in faction war systems. Lots of ways for new players to learn how PvP works.
Also, what do you mean by ‘except being boosted’? Do you consider joining a PvP corp ‘boosting’?
Talk about playing the victim here, Daichi linked a website where most of the content is detailing the implosion of people who they have successfully wound up at a personal level and which is known as that, and links it to a person who knows what it is and Daichi blames any toxicity on the victims:
Herzog knows exactly what Daichi was doing, as do I, and at best you are showing smug ignorance by suggesting that Herzog was being toxic when this post by Daichi is a full on bait post, and I can tell you that I have seen Daichi do this at least three times previously.
I’m just not going to let someone get away with saying gankers are the only toxic players and the reason why no one talks in local when it’s widely acknowledged that carebears and ‘would-be’ victims like Herzog_Wolfhammer are often the ones lashing out making personal attacks and being toxic.
Minerbumping.com was just somewhere i know documents evidence to support my claim. And the fact that the first post of the site showed exactly what i was talking about was just a happy accident.
I wasn’t baiting Herzog_Wolfhammer anymore than he was baiting me by making a claim i found disingenuous.
Since you’re suggestion an EVE beginner can learn combat PvP through experience I think we should stop here. We probably wouldn’t progress much anyway - I don’t thunk there’s that much more to say.
“Boosting” is a slippery term in any game, so I won’t object if you donb’t like the wy I’m using it, but what I meant is one of these, or something similar:
Being invited in by well-established friends, who solve the knowledge, wealth, income, and social contact threshold simply and seamlessly
Being one of the small minority who’s “lucky” enough to meet the right kind of people in WH or nullSec, and be asked to join a Corp that’s capable of training a rookie. Lucky is in “” because that’s far from the whole story, but it’s off topic.
Being part of another small minority that ignore the majority of advice they get about what to do after Rookie Help (including the SOE Arc, which is only useful for the hated class of rookie that’s on a PvE path). EVE Uni, maybe RvB, maybe getting lucky with a Corp via the Recruitment forum (but that’s basically a dice roll)
(3) is close enough to your question. Joining a Corp can work, but there’s no good way to select a Corp.
There’s even a process (large pinned post in the Rookie Q&A forum) but you need experience (e.g. gained from helpful Corp-mates to use it effectively.
Schools and on-the-job training exist because some knowledge can’t be learned from books.
I just looked at the two posts he posted before your bait post and he did not say that gankers are the only toxic players. Here are his two posts which I presume you reacted to:
and the one you did react to
I only see him talking about the way certain gankers get at the person and make them react.
And you linked to the site which does exactly what he was talking about and now you are trying to pretend it was because he said that they are the only toxic people in the game, which he did not.
Posting a link to minerbumping isn’t automatically a ‘full on bait post’. I link to EVE related sites all the time if it adds to a discussion or if it helps players to find examples of what we’re talking about. EVE uni, EVE market sites, EVE who, minerbumping, zkillboard, all of these are part of commonly known EVE-related sites. And I see no reason why linking one of those should be considered ‘bait’ unless it is part of the usual ‘praise james blah blah’ and ‘calm down miner’ text.
When you accuse someone of being toxic merely for posting one of the commonly known EVE links, I think you really should reconsider your definition of toxic.
That absolutely requires a quote, or you need to restate your claim.
Widely acknowledged where? You and your fellow self-appointed “Guardians of the purity of EVE”? I hope not, because people who lead almost every time with ad hominem attacks are (thankfully) a minority here, despite the disproportionate amount of damage they do.
So: you need quotes. The first from at least one post, but no “creative reinterpretation”, equivocation, or cherry-picking please. The second only from people who make more constructive posts than destructive ones.
BTW “constructive” includes people “lobbying” for or against changes purely to retain or enhance their particular style of play. The condition isn’t which “side” someone is on, but whether they make reasonably polite posts.
While the SoE arc is indeed useful for those pursuing a PvE biased path, it’s also useful for many other things because the standings increases gained from it affects multiple mechanics.
PvE biased rookies aren’t hated btw, players who can’t accept that PvP is an essential part of Eve and that it can and does affect PvE are the group that tends to be disliked.
It is all about the context, Daichi even supplied his reasoning which proves that it was in his own mind and not what Herzog actually posted, and the line about RL threats is so meh as it is another version of calm down miner, which you obviously do not recognise. Link sites by all means, but make sure you do so in the right context.
I have been posting on the Eve forums since 2009 and Herzog has been posting longer than me, we have seen a lot of this.
We’re never going to be able to have a decent discussion, so I’ll stop here I think …
… but FWIW:
IMO the SoE Arc has a very large “opportunity cost” for a new player. Standings matter, but e.g. learning PvP combat basics, how to bookmark a system, how to scan, how to select a WH to visit (appallingly badly documented), etc are much more important.
New players have to become engaged in activities that are fun before they get bored and leave. The SoE Arc is good from a 12-month perspective, but hardly any rookies get to 2 months. And it’s a real grind in a low-SP T1/T1 ship.
(An aside: I also think starving rookies of ISK is stupid for the same reason. Solo players have every reason to be cautious and watch their wealth/income. No doubt it works eventually, but the few solo success stories you see in the forums rarely (if ever) describe a cautious path for getting set up).
That’s fair enough, and in some ways you’re correct; bookmarking, scanning etc all being very important skills for someone to have in their arsenal.
The SoE arc is primarily for the standings, unfortunately the impact of those standings has been watered down over the years; they used to be a magnitude more important than they are now. Still useful, but not as useful as in the past.
WH’s are inherently geared towards more mature players, especially on the PvE side if combat PvE is what someone is hoping to do there.
About the only “newbie” friendly activity in wormholes is huffing gas, everything else requiring “significant” investment in skills and ships.
I agree with this entirely, look what you made me do
I think we both agree that CCP could do more to push newbies in directions other than grinding; the NPE is somewhat lacking when it comes to helping newbies interact with others and find their place in the game.
to use it effectively.