Encounter Surveillance System Update

Not quite following what you are asking, but yea, I would prefer all alts to be removed, if you’re doing something, commit to that. Without all this support from countless alts, we wouldn’t have titan caches every 5 jumps…

EVE client can gather about it’s environment if you look at EULA and can figure out if it is running inside VM. As for it being selfish, puerile and disgraceful, if you say so, sure… Not sure how it is exactly those things, but I am sure you will elaborate it in your next reply.

Also, I consider it puerile that you would react in such a manner since you disagree with somebodies opinion which isn’t in line with your own. Also maybe you are selfish with your army of alts taking opportunities from other players. If that was the case, that would be disgraceful.

Actually, I already won EVE, I log in every few weeks to see what is going on and keep an eye on forums to see if there is something new worth going on. As for krabbing, I had to look up the term, looks like I would need to be in null sec to be krabbing, considering I didn’t undock 4-4 in about a year now, that is a bit overreaching with that term.

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Why should I suffer because you cant multitask?

And you got that impression from what exactly? I never said I don’t have or that I don’t use alts, I am just saying that they are bad for game, especially after 2012-2015 period when people started doing one man incursions, one man 10 rorqual fleets, hell, even in PVP there was one man bomber fleet. Ofc, those are extreme examples, but still, people running 6-12 toons for PI + 6-12 research alts and it adds up…

Around 2015 I’ve had 8 research toons with manufacturing lines, did I use it? Yes… Was it fair? Well, I don’t think one guy should be able to outproduce corp of 10 actual people. Instead of me being able to produce 3 jump freighters per month, I was able to pump 24 of them, just by myself. Also instead of promoting team playing in online game, everything in EVE is more of “just make another alt instead of splitting the profits”.

I get it that some people like alts, I get it that people are used to them, hell, I also keep few of them around, I am just saying that for general health of the game, they might not be the best thing. You are free to have different opinion and ofc voice it as I have, but I would appreciate arguments instead of trying to insult my abilities.

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In what way is it not fair? (I mean, we are ignoring that you want rid of a function that youve already profitted from, which is kicking the ladder put from those coming after you)

That one guy is only out producing them if they are not doing the minimum they need. 10 real players working to a goal will generally be able to deal with changes. Not only that, if that one guy cant get on line, he loses 100% of his work opportunities. If one of the ten are unable, thats just 10% work drop.

Im sorry to hear you were offended, but when people try to get me to kill my family of alts, I get somewhat defensive. But there is nothing stopping anyone having many alts, so the most logical angle was that some people have difficulty operating them. Thats not intended as an insult.

Look the bottom line is this, besides a feeling of “unfairness”, what is the issue with having alts? And what about them is unfair?

Well, we also used to stone people, and some people profited a lot by having slaves do all the work, so I guess now I should be annoyed that somebody kicked the ladder under me :slight_smile:

It’s the scale issue. Alts are way to strong force multipliers. Like look at PI stuff, say you are smaller corp and you want to start SRP program and build stockpiles. Assume there is 2 corps, each one has 10 real people. One of the corp is using alts, another isn’t.

The one using alts can generate 30 toons pulling PI stuff from planets, generate far bigger profits and support their corp way better. They can also use their alts parked in space with OCR running software to be used as early warning system while they do something else, they can also build in parallel 10 carriers while enemy can build 3 of them in parallel. You done for the day, well, just log of your main and leave a cloaky alt somewhere to mess with enemy (without any risk or time sink to travel to the enemy systems). And to run those alts doesn’t cost that much more.

Even if you run them on different account, you parallelize your work to pretty much earn at same rate for one or ten accounts, then just keep reaping the 10 time the profits. For example, if one miner takes 3 days to earn his plex, if you send 10 of them in the field, you will need maybe 4 days to earn plex for each of them, but every day after that it is 10 times more the yield, that is how we ended up with all the supers in game.

Back in the day they were rarer, not because of some magic new feature, but because people would at most have 1 alt. These days everybody needs to have multiple accounts to be competitive, this is what I see as problem. Where it took corp effort or really long time to make a super, now you have 5 guys with 10 alts each who keep churning them. You have 5 guys with 10 rorquals each providing materiels. CCP is combating this with introduced scarcity, but again, this is easy to combat with alts. You lost some minerals in null? well, start few highsec mining alts and then just jump it in a freighter…

Overall, the biggest issue is scaling in bigger entities, the bigger the corp / alliance, the greater the effect of everybody running alts. Every problem can be solved more easily with alts, without it being that much more expensive in the long run, hence the issue. I always found it strange that EVE allowed for multiple clients comparing to other online games, it just made little sense on balancing side.

Ofc it is hard to ignore the profits from CCP side, but this narrative that asset accumulation needs to be combated, that there is to much isk in game, to much capitals, etc, all can be boiled down that most of these issues are there since the force multiplier of alts. From EVE uni, apparently hulk can be filled in 5 minutes, for one player it would mean 12 loads per hour, assume EVE is your second job and you do 8 hours per day. That is 96 loads per day, 2880 loads per month for one person.

In comes alliance / corp with alts, lets say 4 miners per person is more than manageable, you have either highsec, or your warning systems, etc… Now each person is pulling 11520 loads per month. According to some reddit post, you need 60 hours of mining with Hulk to earn for plex. So in this example, one person with one account makes 240 hours per month, earns for 4 plexes, uses 1 plex and has 3 plex worth of profit. One person with 4 accounts mines effectively 960 hours per month, earns 16 plexes, uses 4 plexes, has 12 plex worth of profit, but they both invested the same time overall doing same activity, multiboxer just clicked 4 times for each one click of real player.

Ofc sooner or later everybody and their mother will be in titan and we will use DD’s only to kill each other, ofc no matter how many quantum core features you make, structure spam will just continue, no matter how much resources you redistribute, alts fleets will just adapt…

So to sum it up. Are alts bad design for game - sure they are. Are people wrong for using them? Well, no, why not use every edge you can, but at least realize that it in long term affects game very very much, some will argue for better, some for worse, but nevertheless, the effect is going to be even more harder to ignore in future.

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To add, it’s not the issue that person with 4 miners would earn 4 times, makes sense. The issue is that 1 person 1 account has time limits. He can’t on his own mine for a titan in a month. With alts he can do it in a month. So one year goes by, you made 12 titans for your corp since you have alts.

You could argue that if you wanted to stick it to bigger entities, then this is good thing to be able to build 12 titans in year, but bigger corp will have more people with same ability to alt, so they can also upscale their production to again have the gap and have it easier

I dont understand the comparison, sorry.

Sorry I mustve missed where you explain how 10 alts are better than 10 individuals at any given task.

How?

Have you considered that not everyone seeks to compete, and not everyone wants a Titan? And that aspiration for bigger may be a fallacy?