Enough with the intel warning programs


(Ezio Dicostanzo) #1

Hey,
As nullsec hunters we are feeling more and more concerned about the difficulty to find targets, not that there is no one in space, but they see us coming 10 jumps out, and even get audio warnings when it happens, due to out of game programs that keep track of the logs of intel chat channels!
Programs like NEAR2 should not be tolerated as it really kills content for hunters and it does give ratters an unfair advantage over us.
Is it normal to be alerted of neutrals coming in your direction 15min in advance? Fine then ccplz give us delayed local so we can also have an advantage (or any other solution)
I just feel like it’s not fair, and it literally kills content for target hunting. Has this topic ever been brought up to CCP? What is their view on this? I don’t think chat logs were ever ment to be used by 3rd party apps that makes ratting literally 99% safe, this is just f*** wrong, and unfair


Gui Upgrades
(z0rberg) #2

+1

down with surveillance software


(Krysenth) #3

Emergent Gameplay. /thread

:wink:


(Linus Gorp) #4

The only solution you’ll have is afk cloaking, since CCP will either do nothing at all or make it even safer for the bears (is that even possible?). On the bright side, you’re going to get mountains of salt along with it for free.


(Keno Skir) #5

Remove local. Free salt bonus.


(Lena Crews) #6

I believe the correct response to threads like this is usally:

“get gud”


Main AFK cloaky thread
(z0rberg) #7

You selfish pack. Nothing about survaillance software has anything to do with being “gud” or “emergent gameplay”. This issue extends far beyond nullsec and carebears being protected from actual emergent gameplay. Once we install a proper survaillance network in highsec, you’ll WISH it’ll get banned, because you will not be able to set a foot anywhere without people coming for you. We will know your alts, we will know when you log in, we will know where you go.

Get gud, ey?


(Lena Crews) #8

I’m sorry. Still laughing at a non-carebear providing salt like carebears normally do.

“It’s too hard to find easy targets. WAAAH!”

Forgive me for being amused.


(z0rberg) #9

Who are you trying to fool here? No one but you is a crybaby, as can be seen when it comes to afk cloakers.You want to be perfectly safe and you don’t give a rats ass about how it would affect the game.

You can’t make rational arguments and you don’t even remotely comprehend the issues, at all. You only care about yourself and how you can hide from people who would kick your ass in game if you wouldn’t be hiding as soon as even a hint of a threat enters local. Or is that not what you do, carebear?


(Gian Bal) #10

I speak from both sides of the fence here (I carrier rat and I hunt ratters).

I think these intel warning programs shouldn’t be allowed because it allows people to fully AFK rat with no risk at all because rather than tabbing into game regularly to check intel they just add a few systems on their ping list and all they gotta do is wait for the sound and can go.

It’s not like it was too hard to see people coming before because simply put: If you wanna AFK rat then theres a good chance you’re gonna get caught, if you’re not actively playing the game then you deserve to lose your ship.
I sit there carrier ratting alot semi AFK, I watch a tv show and check intel channel every few minutes and I’ve never been caught. However as a hunter too, it just makes hunting people in nullsec stupidly hard because they just get a ping when you’re nearby and dock up.

Nullsec is the biggest isk faucet ingame (IIRC) and all these programs do is make it worse because much fewer people will be losing ships and fewer people will wanna be hunting them. It’s not like you’re killing off an entire section of players by banning these types of programs because people got by before without them.

I just don’t see how this type of thing can be good for the game.


(Keno Skir) #11

Issue being, you can ban the program but since it does not interact with the EvE client in any way other than visually there is no way of telling who is and is not using one. The only way i can see to inhibit the use of these chat monitoring programs a decent amount is to make intelligence actually take effort, rather than just linking anyone not blue seen in local chat to intel.

#RemoveLocalFromNulsec @CCP_Falcon


(Lena Crews) #12

My argument with AFK cloakers has nothing to do with cloaking. I just don’t like the idea of afk players. Wanting an automatic logout after an long period of inactivity in the client isn’t about safety. It’s about actually making sure the person you’re trying to interact with is actually present at their computer.

Heck, I’d love for people to be able to activate cynos while cloaked. Or begin firing immediately without any kind of delay before using weapons. I just want people who are shown as online to actually be at their computer.

Has to do with “multiplayer” needing the “player” part to actually work. I’m sorry if that concept is beyond you.

That being said… not sure why you’re bothering to bring that up here.

I don’t personally care about this as I don’t use 3rd party intel software. I just find it amusing that those who constantly berate carebears for not being able to deal with the difficulties of EVE are now complaining… because the carebears found a way to deal with one of the difficulties of EVE and THEY don’t want to have to deal with that.


(Linus Gorp) #13

You know, if you weren’t stupid enough to believe that ■■■■■■■■ you constantly give from yourself, you’d probably notice all those fallacies that each and every one of your cry posts contains.


(shadow-ops commando) #14

I do carrier ratting and null sec hunting and I have to admit near 2 and programmes like it make it too easy to be safe. Ccp should remove chat logs completely from users pc’s so programmes like near 2 can’t scan them. This is and should be a game about risk and reward. Being afk and hearing audible warnings from a programme / bot is not risky. More ships exploding will reduce isk faucets, it will make more money for the industry guys replacing the ships, will keep hunters interested in playing the game and make everyone in null sec realise that null sec is an unsafe part of space. it is cheating and is not designed for what the game intended. If so ccp would have added it.


(z0rberg) #15

There are ways to prevent programs from taking screenshots, but i don’t know how it works technically. it’s the same stuff that can prevent people from recording movies directly from their screen. problem is that it would also prevent streaming.


(Oran Addler) #16

So how is this not pvp?
Obviously if they’re using intel programs to avoid pvp then they are unlikely to be flying a pvp worthy ship.

How is this not piracy?
If you know any history of pirates they rarely killed ships unless they resisted. Killing ships were bad for business because fewer ships would come to be hunted. This means killing ships makes less isk. Not only are you blowing up cargo but you’re also telling that player never to come down that path again. This trickles down to their friends and eventually, only worthless hauls show up. Yes, you probably get a lot more from them initially if you blow them up but ransoming them keeps the business going and a corp of pirates could be very lucrative maintaining this in a system. Thus players who don’t see this as a profession and business are actually not pirates but just the above pvp delusional players who have ruined the pirate culture. In fact, pirates should be killing the people who hurt their trade. As it stands I’ve seen more stories about people ransoming players then killing them so the culture may already be too far gone unless a corp sets a standard and protects it.

The real problem for pve players is that Eve has no insurance on cargo unless it is contracted. So when they get killed while being defenseless than the loss is complete and bitter distaste. In the historical past when piracy was a thing then there was insurance both on cargo and crew.

The solution is as complex as the problem which I will restate clearly here. Firstly, there is a culture problem of killmail hoarding and players claiming it is pvp to kill a venture while they are in a dominix. Secondly, even if they could magic programming away from the 3rd party overlay nonsense of these programs then a kill mail alert program could just as easily be used as a runaround system to accomplish the same thing.

The solution that I came up within the 5 minutes spent typing is like in the real world we should allow some way for players to ensure cargo to avoid total loss situations for pve players and limit their risk avert butts from feeling like they need these intel programs.

Secondly they should remove the player logs from the client side or encrypt them or something so as to only allow access to them from within the game itself. Thus resulting in programs no longer being able to access them without violating the TOS or EULA or w/e they call it here.

Thirdly, if neither of these things increase the quality of life in low/null sec or decrease the bad culture being used by both sides then remove kill mails from the game as they can be abused by both sides as explained above.


(Oran Addler) #17

PS on the issue of cloaky blah blah that has come up here the solution is simple, turn local chat into what it is in WH space. Thus everyone has a passive form of cloaking. As a result, cloaking will either need to be removed or reworked to be temporary.


(Urd Voiddaughter) #18

Intel bots are tricky to deal with since the do not interact directly with the client. Even if we removed logs there are plenty of other ways for scraping intel from an AFK client. Just like PVE botting you are fighting an uphill battle.

As a wormholer, the idea to remove local from nullsec makes me all warm and tingly. That said I don’t think the community would support such a drastic measure. One thing which has been discuss is delaying local and modifying that delay through skills/sov upgrades. A good starting point would be that pilots doesn’t show up in local until they decloak. They are for all other intents and purposes not there. Another idea which has been discussed is that players that did not come through a gate takes longer to show up in local.


(Bjorn Tyrson) #19

frankly I don’t see much of a problem with it, I don’t use any of the programs myself and I STILL see you coming 5-10 jumps out. frankly this is just more of the same “null-sec is too safe” argument that really boils down to you not liking that groups of hundreds of people, can effectively protect themselves against you by your lonesome.


(Frejasa Momaki) #20

The thing is that a lot of players are essentially psychopaths with an endless lust for blood and no care for what pirates tens of thousands of years ago in another part of the universe. Nor even consider themselves pirates, but they do like if you leave something expensive in your wreck please. {Welll a lot of the best players at solo and micro pvp; and this is the real issue, there are several archetypes of pvp, so there is no balance possible that equally favors all, and why you lose your favorite ship that isn’t OP in your type of pvp; it may be breaking the game in one archetype while it’s just harmless fun in others}

They aren’t really, a lot of them are the nicest and most trustworthy freinds to have–but to a non pvp oriented person running into them they would appear to be some kind of psychopath. They aren’t psycho at all though, they just love killing to the point of it being a constant obsession… And some would never accept a ransom let alone offer one. Then there’s no pretty fireworks. (Plus if you are willing to pay for your worthless life I really gotta know what’s in there. But I already needed to know what’s in your pod, so it’s all just part of the process, really.) And it really doesn’t hurt business. You’ll find that the more you kill, the better you get at killing and soon you will always be slipsliding around in the blood of your kills. Innocent blood slipslides just as well as guilty. Oh and killing a venture with a domi is actually pretty awesome if the venture wasn’t attacking the domi first. You’re thinking more like dessy against weak hauler or barge. I’d kill them both equally dead, but the venture story would probably get told at least a few times before ti’s lost to the haze of constant blood and slaughter. And oh yeah, if someone is dying it sure as hell counts as pvp. You don’t have to struggle if you don’t want to, as long as your ship blows up, we good, it’s pvp. And it’s very easy for a pvp oriented player like that to see the difference between running into an unwilling indrustialist that you squash; or battling overwhelming odds solo. One set of kills is certainly better and more bragworthy; but neither has an advantage in honor. The only dishonor would be to not kill something which you may be able to.

Some don’t see why I want to kill I guess. I kinda understand, since I can’t see how you don’t want to kill. Luckily the game pretty much lets you play whatever style/styles you feel like.

Some people want to fight. Some don’t. No reason one side should get what they want without displaying some decent gameplay. (That’s for low/null and old-school highsec ganking. Indrustrialized highsec ganking does seem a little more problematic, as much as I hate to say that about something that increases the murder rate, which I would generally favor [in game])

A lot of what I’ve called “psychopathic solo and micro pvpers” would feel bad to think it drove someone out of the game too (some even give lavishly to their victims, but that never felt quite right to me, happy to answer questions to help a victim learn about pvp or even how to avoid it if they strike up a nice conversation. Or happy to lick the tears off their eyeballs if they want to cry, either provides good denoument). On the other hand, aren’t the “psychopaths” delivering on the promise of danger in eve, one of it’s real distinguishing features?

Before people got around to taking highsec ganking and nullsec intel utilities to absurd levels I really thought everything was fine. There is nothing wrong with afk cloaking and it’s only multiplayer if you don’t know what he’s doing. The thing the anti-clokites always wanted was a completely reliable indication to undock. It’s not because “true” multiplayer can only happen when you know they are at the keyboard.

I always thought delayed or missing local just tilts too far toward large scale pvp. Hard to make your way around for small scale stuff when you can’t even tell where yuge gangs are, possibly even when in the same system.

I mean intel the old fashioned way was still pretty strong, especially deep in sov null, but it seemed totally fair, just like cloaking wherever and whenever and however afk or not you feel like is fair. Was all in the game. (P.S. you could always find for sure if cloaker is afk/no threat: go at least one system away. If he follows, then he is definitely active, maybe hunting you. Yay our sov carebear friends finally have the confirmed active multiplayer they wanted. What do you mean they still docked and logged?
They said they wanted multiplayer…) Maybe he’s not hunting you at all. Sometimes people do things in eve totally unrelated to you. But I bet the anti-clokites always just know it’s all for them.

Is there a practical way to stop the super intel? I don’t know. Should it be stopped? I see nothing wrong with killing the weakest of weaklings and proudly smearing the youngest member of my tribe in there blood. I mean, if it’s right there on your overview and everything, how are you going to not kill it? It won’t be an awesome kill, but it will be a thing that is dead, and that just has intrinsic value obviously. Or maybe not obviously. But there are people who find your obvious to be non-obvious.

So many ways to play, hell you don’t even have to pvp. Not on purpose anyway. But the risk is truly one (though not only) of the defining features of eve.

…Hmmm, actually I guess there is no problem, is there?

Silly forums made me think something was happening. But it appears that the issue is that anti-clokites don’t want to have to put up with it being a multiplayer game (saying you do while proposing changes that promote the opposite isn’t fooling anyone), and sov often sux (even if it does yield some real gems) for solo or micro hunting.

Lots of things change, but not those two things I guess.

Good job though, you guys fooled me into thinking we were talking about something for a second there.