Any danger for these things stepping on one of the Dread’s crucial roles, and if so, why would we want that?
How will they?
Answering a question with a question?
Were I to venture a guess…
Dreads use a siege mode to lock in place for 5 minutes if I recall correctly. This siege allows them to radically up their damage, and they are essentially useless without that damage boost.
If the death ray thingies need two to three minutes to ramp up to full damage, and are essentially useless unless they get to that point, then it boils down to what DPS numbers a Trig battleship can put out verses that dread. A major difference being that trigs can remote rep each other and move to mitigate incoming damage, dreads cannot move nor can they receive remote assistance while sieged. On the flipside, while sieged, I don’t know if TDs, damps, and ECM can work against a dread but probably not.
Given that constant damage ramp-up is required for the Trig to work effectively given it’s anemic initial damage output, it’s been speculated that structure bashing and anti-capital work are some of the very few instances where it would even make sense to use the weapon (due to assumed time needed to kill both, due to EHP amounts). Since that’s also the purview of dreads, I’m guessing this is where Beast’s going with his question. But it’s just a guess.
Primarily for non-Dread structure bashing.
Remains to be seen how fleets in large fights will include Trig ship detachments, and how it will operate under TiDi.
Probably as a detachment that focuses its DPS first on Cap/fFCs, and repairs each other within the detachment.
I wouldnt be surprised if Entropic Disintegrators (ED) work optimally in TiDi, compared to other weapon systems.
LOL have you ever flow a dread OP? How about a battleship? I think if you had you would answer your own question.
CCP mentioned something about 2500 DPS for the Leshak once it’s spooled up. I assume that means max Skills, but I’m not sure if that is DPS before Damage modifiers or not. A Capital weapon Dread spits out far more than that, HAW Dreads too.
That being said Dreads are already put under a lot of pressure by the prevalence of Supers + Fax.
Dreads in Siege are immune to ECM, and get 70% resistance against Weapon Disruption and Damps.
Dreads can be fit pretty cheap and still be effective, especially in larger engagements. Insure them and your losses are minimal. We’ll have to see how the Leshak will do in terms of prize/insurance/fitting costs.
In smaller engagements the active repping bonus of the Siege module and the hull boni to either resistances or rep cycle time, comes into play. The local rep power of that goes beyond what a remote repping Leshak gang could accomplish (unless we talk about very large numbers which is unlikely/impractical/impossible for RR).
The fact that a Dread has much more RAW HP also means that it will not be volleyed off the field as easy as the Leshak might.
I’d say if people bridge Leshak gangs on a target, it won’t be to replace Dreads, but for some other reason/role.
You would be correct.
Doesn’t really matter, unless it’s a committed fight to the death between fleets. The dreads are siting ducks which can’t move for 5 minutes. Meanwhile, the el-cheapo Trig ships just fly off grid if danger shows up.
Hard to believe a Trig ship would be more risk to use in terms of ISK on the field than a capship. The only precedent for that would be something like a Marauder, which seems to break the general rule of “subcaps = less ISK than caps.”
The Leshak fleet will just get the hell out of Dodge if danger shows up. The dread will be sitting there not moving.
These things will be stepping on the role of Dreads. If I didn’t already think these things were bad ideas, I certainly do now.
That’s very interesting to learn. But let’s look at that dps number for the Triggy - 2,500 dps. Isn’t that in the realm of a blinged-out Rattlesnake? A pirate BS that requires two weapon specializations in order to achieve that number. Verses this new vessel which only requires one. And while it may not approach dread DPS numbers, there’s still something to be said about the ability to GTFO if you want. Dreads commit to five minutes at a time, a Trig can keep itself aligned out.
Not for nothing, but I hate drones and missiles. So if I wanted to get a high-damage subcap and avoid using a Rattle, this would be the perfect ship. It’ll probably be easier to skill into overall. And if it or these line of ships become moderately popular, then you have a larger pool of pilots that can bring significant DPS to a bash, verses a comparatively smaller pool of pilots that have trained into caps. That’s also something we ought not to dismiss out of hand.
I definitely see a role for it in there - a high damaging subcap that can be used against undefended or lightly defended structures where the order of the day is “gtfo if reinforcements arrive”. It doesn’t have to commit. Larger forces which already have considerable fleet strength will get nothing out of this because they plan to commit to the fight anyway. So I would say smaller forces might use this, trying to make an impact using more guerilla-style combat tactics.
In the end, I think it’s going to boil down to money. After the initial market boom where these things are massively inflated in cost, where they settle down to will determine everything. If they cost as much as a rattle, they’ll compete for light structure bashing and possibly some anti-cap work for lone carriers caught unawares. If they cost substantially more (which is a very distinct possibility) then they might not have any role at all since a dread would be a better choice.
So in summary, I think you’re correct in that there’s some potential for overlap but not enough for concern. This is merely another potential tool for the job for when circumstances permit it.
No they won’t. Tell me one reason why they would.
Comparing the Leshak to the Rattlesnake makes way more sense, because both are Battleships. Alas the 2500 DPS is after a minimum of 160 seconds constant shooting at one single target. The Leshaks Alpha damage will be under that of other Battleships. It is also far more limited in terms of range than your typical fleet BS. For Solo it always depends what the pilot flying them is doing with the ship.
As any other Battleship the Leshak will not be a direct competitor of Dreads.
Dreads are not the common tool of choice when it comes to bashing Citadels. Supers are far better for that as are cheaper, long range Subcaps. If people use Leshaks to bash structures they are either stupid or very sure about their safety net.
Agreed, especially for fighting against ratting carriers.
What do you see the Trigs ships as being used for?
This strains too far from the topic. Open another thread and I’ll reply asap.
Its clear from OP that is what he was asking about.
OP was specifically asking to discuss wether or not Triglavian ship will compete with Dread roles.
If you want to generally discuss what Triglavian ships are used for, open another thread. Also, maybe bring something up to the table for discussion, as OP did, e.g. share your own findings/assumptions/opinions if you want others to make the effort to post for you.
Possibly also offer some ISK for people to tell you what to invest in.
@Salvos_Rhoska’s question was totally legitimate, on-point and pertaining to the subject matter presented here.
One of the premier roles of dreads is structure bashing. If I had an ISK for every time a hardened Eve vet told me “dreads are for structure bashing” I’d be space rich. It appears entropic disintegrators will perform this role very well, and, again, I’m already hearing hardened Eve vets speak of this potential role while salivating.
These things will be poor man’s dreadnoughts that will be cheaper, less risk, and with the ability to get the hell out of Dodge while a dread is sitting there sieged-up. Do the math.
Uninformed and ignorant. I’m out of this thread. Believe what you want, i don’t care.
T1 fit oracle are the poor man’s dreadnought.
Hardly. I’d use one if I had nothing else - they are cheap, and don’t require ammo use which would be a significant burden if you were sitting there shooting for a day while AFK. But lasers are hardly optimized or tailor-made for structure bashing.