EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook

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864

Give them a reason to risk and possibly lose their most valuable assets and spend isk reserves.
This won’t happen while these assets (supers, titans, all capitals) can sit safely in tether range .
Tethering needs to have a time limit and docking restrictions that forces the largest ships in the game to be at risk once undocked.
90 seconds then ship needs to leave tethering range before it can retether or dock. Once redocked they are unable to undock for 10 minutes (maintenance crews need to check them over). This would hinder large groups simply undocking hundreds of capital class ships to create tidi and put those that do undock at more of a risk of destruction.

Before the haters - I own a variety of capitals including supers and a titan.
I also believe CCP should roll back the blueprint changes and find another solution to super proliferation. EG, hard cap the amount that can be built in any one location (system, constellation, region).
Making the game more complex and increasing the cost to build only keeps the wealth where it is. The rich stay rich and the poor pay the price.

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865

As much as I like your ideas, the only way to save the game is to kill it and start over? Extreme guess there. Even if CCP does regain the upper edge? The whales come back in and take over again?

866

Player numbers are so low that I should resub my other acct’s just to take advantage of it and just stockpile more “hoping” the game will recover?

867

For these players their most valuable assets are probably not things like ships. But stuff related to the market. A player with say a trillion ISK of wealth might have a few titans, chances are the vast bulk of their wealth is in other stuff, probably stuff that won’t be at too much risk.

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868

This won’t save ■■■■. I certainly wouldn’t bother. To find years worth of work and effort suddenly gone? Why should I “start over”. This is just nostalgic bull-shite masquerading as a suggestion.

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869

IRL you know what European countries have found…trying to deal with wealth inequality is really hard and had a slew of bad effects. So much so many countries gave up on the idea and dropped their wealth taxes.

870

I totally agree but as CCP is using scarcity as a means to slow/stop Super and Titan proliferation I’m saying maybe there is a better way, that doesn’t affect everyone as scarcity does.
Just in my mains corp alone, since the beginning of scarcity there are well over 200 accounts no longer being subbed, 13 of those are mine.
How many subs is CCP willing to dump in what from a wealthy (but not "rich) players point of view is a series of changes that are not affecting the target group.

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871

Good questions and I can answer. If you go to the monthly economic report. Look at the chart for isk supply is the easiest place to see inflation. All the way up to the point of the Ecosystem changes it was on a continuous path up for years, with no correction. This makes isk value diminish (supply and demand) and thus inflation in the economy.

There is a spike in prices, but I would expect this to go down as some normal minerals are back into moons, and anomalies are getting better for miners. The last changes to industry were massive in ecosystem terms. It is too early I believe to adjust anything, but you can already see the markets filling up with supplies. The prices for normal ships I believe will come down in the coming month or so here.

I think it is important to remember it is a economy full of millionaires, that is worth trillions per month. The balance will always take two to three months to catch up.

For the PCU count, it did dip slightly lower than the average summer but since no one got a break on 2020, you could argue that game burnout is approaching, and a change of scenery is needed for the average player. Making the outdoors in the summer month particularly special due to the fact of the missed summer in 2020. The only way this statement would be refuted is if the fall months come, and the players don’t return. I hope that isn’t the case.

Cheers and fly safe,

Blockquote

872

I’m against your point of view.
First of all, I’m sure your data analysis is correct. There is no denying that we need a good and recyclable economic ecology, but please don’t forget that Eve is just a game, and the game needs fun. Ecosystem is important, but the fun of the game is the essence of this eve. CCP must understand that only when players get a sense of achievement and happiness in eve Can CCP make profits.
Secondly, in the process of reforming Eve itself, CCP should not only focus on the problems of Eve itself, but also take a more macro view of the global online game market. What are the essential differences between Eve and other games? Is it the background of the star wars, or the perfect economic model, or the poor art, or the global unified server. No, no, neither. The reason why players play Eve is a sense of precipitation, growth, skill growth day by day, accumulation!!! In wow, every increase will start again, and every CS round will start again. Only Eve, in addition to knowledge accumulation, players think that time is also an accumulation. So the biggest use of Eve for other games is “Hope”.
Then, how to find a dialectical balance between accumulation, hope and inflation is the focus of CCP reform. We should give priority to the advantages of Eve, carry forward the hope of players to play, and maintain the health of macro-economy. I don’t have a systematic solution for you, but as far as the results of Eve reform are concerned, you have done a very poor job.
1ccp can create new boats, new ways of playing, and make the manufacture of new boats more difficult. But what do you mean by changing old things into complex ones? It’s like hitting the player in the face. Players to CCP monthly card, is to let CCP to players create unpleasant?
The concept of economics should not be blindly framed into Eve’s economic ecology. Maybe microeconomics, perfectly competitive market and other concepts can play a full role in the guitar market. However, it is obvious that macro economics in real life is not suitable for Eve’s economic ecosystem.
The reason for the loss of players now is that they have lost “Hope”. At least, I don’t believe more and more that you have the ability and strength to run this brilliant theme.

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873

What you are saying holds a lot of truth. And the truth you are saying is what we want for the game. I will respond to your comments in order, to only shed light behind my personal thoughts. And I will try to be brief as possible.

The game is still fun, nothing has been taken away from that. Things have changed, but it hasn’t changed my feelings for the game.

The single server (minus China) is a huge selling point. We wouldn’t have set world records otherwise. A single universe make Eve very special and very unquie. The other points in the second paragraph are valid. Hope in Eve is true, people do need to feel they can invest years into the game, and if they don’t why play Eve because that is what you need. I believe there are many years to come, and thus why I still play.

The ecosystem is more complex to balance than real life because their isn’t a banking system. Meaning isk is issued through faucets, which is PVE, Project Discovery, and other activities that bring isk into the game. In real life when inflation goes up, you raise the interest rates and activities go down. The Ecosystem changes is CCP way of trying to correct it or the game would die, we the players would kill it and we wouldn’t do it on purpose, it would simply always steer that way without intervention. And this will continue to even in the future. We will always continue to flood the market with more and more and more until everything is worth nothing. New players and consumption will fix some of that “more” problem, but gaming communities are extremely dedicated and thus we have built a multi trillion dollar economy per month. Having dials in the game essentially makes CCP the banker, and when they turn the dial up on material needed for “X” ship, that is essentially rasing the interest rates.

You are correct, due to the lack of banking, or governmental system the cause and effect develpers do in a game needs to be different than in real life. I don’t pay income tax for example in Eve, making a billion doesn’t cost me 400M in income tax. Putting complexity in to the industry or even ratting does a few things. Most noteable it gives a clear cut off of a new industrialist coming into the game today that should be building T1 and smaller ships and a vet Industrialist that has lots of experiance in the markets and Industry and is ready to put something complex together. For ratting ESS cuts direct income out and puts it at risk, in hopes it create content and it does.

There is not one fundimental that anyone can point at in the Ecosystem that would say directly go quite the game. Everyone still has the same opportunities you had 12 months ago. I would agrue you have more opportunities now. To be more, have more and hope for more. The game is only getting better in a lot of areas. It isn’t perfect, and I believe CCP know this and they will adjust, but in good time.

Cheers,

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874

Really, I don’t think you have looked. the ISK supply has been flat for months. It certainly is no longer on an upward trajectory. Lately the likely explanation is that people are leaving and the ISK in their wallets just leaves the game.

To the extent that inflation is a “monetary phenomenon” there is no inflation. What we are seeing is a decrease in the real side of the economy so prices are going up because of that. Not exactly the same thing.

It is in pretty much free fall…it isn’t a dip, that’s a hockey stick. Oh, and the summer “break” it typically comes later in the summer. What will it look like then 10,000 PCU?

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875

Why is this? The supply isn’t flat it was trending up the entire time we were in the starvation period. May 2021 was the first time since we started in Q4 of 2019 that it actually trended down in total isk in-game and it was still up

Prices going up, but your wages are not, is the definition of inflation. The decline of purchasing power.

I can’t tell if you simply want to refute my post for content, or if you want to actually be a part of the discussion. It is hard to relate the game to real life, and how the economy will move and what one isk buys today, and what it buys tomorrow. The in-game economy has I would argue more complicated factors than real life.

Free fall would indicate there is something fundamentally wrong and people are leaving in a mass exit. And that isn’t the case. Typically, is no longer a real variable this year. No data we have supports going through a world pandemic and coming out of it. We can speculate, which can be fun, but we don’t know, and won’t know until it is the past. This isn’t a statement of denial, no one wants the game to be healthy more than me. If there is something wrong then we need to work to fix it. > Blockquote

876

No, more of a flat line. I don’t know what you are looking at but the last several months have been pretty flat.

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No. Wages are prices too. The definition of inflation is, for many, a general increase in the price level. And that includes wages too. Many economist refine that definition further to inflation being a general increase in the price level due to an increase in the money supply. Or as Milton Friedman put it,

“Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.” - Friedman, Milton. 1970. Counter-Revolution in Monetary Theory . Wincott Memorial Lecture, Institute of Economic Affairs, Occasional paper 33

The basic fundamental economic aspects of RL are still present in the game. Marginal Benefit (MB) vs. Marginal Cost (MC) and opportunity cost. You used to see references to opportunity cost all the time on the forums when people would mistakenly say, “I mined my own minerals therefore they are free.” And once MB < MC for anything…in life or a video game you stop. People are playing this game. And they do not stop being people when playing a video game. If the MB of ratting drops below the marginal cost (including the opportunity cost of time) then you stop. You go to bed, you go watch television, go have sex with your significant other, etc.

This appeal to “economics doesn’t work in game” is particularly ridiculous when people are talking about…economics in the game and referencing inflation and making implicit arguments based on RL monetary economics such a the money supply increasing faster than the real side of the economy.

In 2018 and 2019 the average PCU was 31,000 and that included the nonsense of black out which drove away a large number of players late in 2019 (IIRC). We are heading towards 20,000. That is we are closing in on a 50% drop.

A sustained drop of this magnitude is pretty damn big for it to just be “we are coming out of a pandemic”. I really, really hope it is, but my fear is that that isn’t it. I am sitting right now in 1DQ and it is mother ■■■■■■■ boring. It is mother ■■■■■■■ boring because SAPI won’t make their final push. Why not? Titans are goddamn expensive now. Very, very goddamn expensive. A final push now would mean lost titans even if they win. Which could mean a pyrrhic victory for SAPI. Boring and a self imposed economic depression that won’t accomplish their stated goals is just dumb.

877

Simple, they aren’t Stupid enough to go balls deep in a situation where it is all against them.
Anyone who believes Goons want to fight to the last in 1DQ is delusional.
No-one can hope to defeat an enemy that can fight on an undock (Goons favorite tactic) or simply sit tethered in 100% safety.
If Goons REALLY wanted to prove they are superior they would challenge their enemies to an all in winner takes all, in a system with no structures and the only way out is death. 2,000 of the best Goons vs 2,000 of the best from the other side. CCP places ALL players in chosen system and locks gates until 1 side is victorious. Only way out is pod express.

1 This would remove roughly 3,000 supers and Titans from the game
2 It would end the war, either way and the rest of us can get back to playing the game.
3 And probably most importantly, CCP would get world wide news coverage of such an epic battle which might just help bring in new blood.

878

I am not a friend of Goons, but what is wrong with using game mechanics to win a battle or avoid a loss?

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879

Nothing at all, until you start calling your opponents cowards for not wanting to fight an unwinnable fight.

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880

don’t sell Goons drugs or they’ll report you in the kennel when they get caught…

881

■■■■ botters. CCP are an amazing game company and i believe the game will only get better and better.

Thank you for all your hard work.

I remember talking about bots at fan-fest with some devs back in 2009, and I wished them the best of luck.

Ultimately the best bot-detector is players noticing unusual activity, like flying pods around, and reporting it so that CCP can investigate properly.

Once a CCP looks at and investigates a bot , there is a 99% chance it will be correctly detected and removed from the game.

But the challenge for us as a player base to help them find these bots.

The bots hurt everyone, and ultimately, even the ones using them.

Many of these people stupidly install these programmes that take control of their computer, and then they are shocked when their credit card details on the same computer get stolen?

Idiots,

Ban all bots.

Forever.

882

Like nobody knew this going in? Really? Really? This was what we said we’d do from the very first day. You can knock off the space bushido Bravo Sierra.

883

Your line is in the wrong spot, if you start at the end of 2019 as point A and put the line where we are today point B what does the line look like then? It is up, not shape, but nevertheless up.

But your wage isn’t going up, if you want to say your revenue is going up I would agree with that, but your margin is smaller, much smaller. It does seem in the last couple of weeks prices look to be flattening in some areas and maybe start that needed downward trend. But no, wages (money in the bank after bills) isn’t going up for most. As with any market, some will make more in these times, i.e. a miner that only makes minerals, that is it, makes more. Ratter with ESS makes less, a Industrialist with commodity prices makes less.

And I would agree on marginal benefit and marginal cost. The only variable you didn’t put in there is Entertainment. You lose money on Netflix, but it does provided entertainment you enjoy.

And you are streaching the figures a bit, it is roughly 33% drop, but yes it is significant. But how many is better bot control? Maybe we never had many players back in the old days, maybe the number has always been what it is today, we just had more bot accounts support the log in numbers. Bot control is real and we know this, thousands have been removed, and thousands still exist.

Cheers,