EVE Resources Realigned: New Ores and Moon Mining Reduction

What stops multiboxers munching up all the smaller anoms? Bearing in mind that you’re seem to be talking about not just smaller anoms, but less ice overall.

People need a training ground but highsec is not a training ground. That’s why the biggest markets in the entire game are built and operated out of highsec, because it’s just an area within the game, not a training ground.

How can you nerf mass multiboxing without nerfing everyone though? Anything a fleet can do, a mutliboxer can do for the most part. Unless they start putting in huge amounts of clicks, that’s not going to change. Honestly I don’t think CCP has any incentive to reduce multiboxing either since it’s a large portion of their profit.

If multiboxers stopped mining and were not replace by any other miners, then sure, volumes might drop. But so would consumption as would overall game activity. I think you’re making a lot of wild assumptions and I’m pretty sure you’re starting with the position of “removal of multiboxers is the solution, what problems can I think of to attribute to them”.

If you have infinite cargo space, which you don’t. You’re also not accounting for ~34% lost to waste.

You’re still not selling me on there being any problem here that isn’t far worse elsewhere though. It just seems to be some irrational hatred you have for multiboxers, and miners in particular. But multiboxing isn’t going anywhere, CCP count on multiboxing for income.

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So they are going to crash the mineral market now? Makes sense? I kind of like isogen where it is (600) and I like zydrine to be above Megacyte (3000) where is currently is. So what’s the gameplan now?

I’m not sure it will crash. We’ll need to see the actual detail before we can make any drastic conclusions like that.

i think your math might be ok…

I and my alliance did some math recently as well, and we came to the conclusion that we could destroy an Ice anom in 64 minutes flat with 1 orca boosting and compression, and 40 mackinaws.

This we could field most likely…but the fact we dont have to, just throw in the random neuts with their own orcas, a squadron of endurances, smattering of single retrievers and procs…i have yet to see an ice field last more than 3 hours with active miners in it and i have seen them go down as fast as 30 mins…AFKing in the ice…dumb decsision, afking in ore belts in HS…even dumber.

In the blue donut :joy:.

Maybe in a WH you will have PvP encounters randomly but dull sec is still a stale piece of bread IMO.

Low sec is the same as dull sec, but without the blue donut.

how ccp expect us to mine if the gankers keep killing us?
i was mining in a 0.3 system and some idiot in a omen killed me
those psychopaths like to grief people that cant shot back because its easy
I’m not a fan of PVP in this game…
this is my proposal for changes to improve mining

Several generations of reactors are commonly distinguished. Generation I reactors were developed in 1950-60s, and the last one shut down in the UK in 2015. Generation II reactors are typified by the present US and French fleets and most in operation elsewhere. So-called Generation III (and III+) are the advanced reactors discussed in this paper, though the distinction from Generation II is arbitrary. The first ones are in operation in Japan and others are under construction in several countries. Generation IV designs are still on the drawing board and will not be operational before the 2020s.

Over 85% of the world’s nuclear electricity is generated by reactors derived from designs originally developed for naval use. These and other nuclear power units now operating have been found to be safe and reliable, but they are being superseded by better designs.

Reactor suppliers in North America, Japan, Europe, Russia, China and elsewhere have a dozen new nuclear reactor designs at advanced stages of planning or under construction, while others are at a research and development stage. Fourth-generation reactors are at the R&D or concept stage.

So-called third-generation reactors have:

  • A more standardised design for each type to expedite licensing, reduce capital cost and reduce construction time.
  • A simpler and more rugged design, making them easier to operate and less vulnerable to operational upsets.
  • Higher availability and longer operating life – typically 60 years.
  • Further reduced possibility of core melt accidents.*
  • Substantial grace period, so that following shutdown the plant requires no active intervention for (typically) 72 hours.
  • Stronger reinforcement against aircraft impact than earlier designs, to resist radiological release.
  • Higher burn-up to use fuel more fully and efficiently, and reduce the amount of waste.
  • Greater use of burnable absorbers (‘poisons’) to extend fuel life.

* The US NRC requirement for calculated core damage frequency (CDF) is 1x10-4, most current US plants have about 5x10-5 and Generation III plants are about ten times better than this. The IAEA safety target for future plants is 1x10-5. Calculated large release frequency (for radioactivity) is generally about ten times less than CDF.

The greatest departure from most designs now in operation is that many incorporate passive or inherent safety features* which require no active controls or operational intervention to avoid accidents in the event of malfunction, and may rely on gravity, natural convection or resistance to high temperatures.

* Traditional reactor safety systems are ‘active’ in the sense that they involve electrical or mechanical operation on command. Some engineered systems operate passively, eg pressure relief valves. They function without operator control and despite any loss of auxiliary power. Both require parallel redundant systems. Inherent or full passive safety depends only on physical phenomena such as convection, gravity or resistance to high temperatures, not on functioning of engineered components, but these terms are not properly used to characterise whole reactors.

Another departure is that most will be designed for load-following. European Utility Requirements (EUR) since 2001 specify that new reactor designs must be capable of load-following between 50 and 100% of capacity. While most French reactors are operated in that mode to some extent, the EPR design has better capabilities. It will be able to maintain its output at 25% and then ramp up to full output at a rate of 2.5% of rated power per minute up to 60% output and at 5% of rated output per minute up to full rated power. This means that potentially the unit can change its output from 25% to 100% in less than 30 minutes, though this may be at some expense of wear and tear.

A feature of some new designs is modular construction. The means that many small components are assembled in a factory environment (offsite or onsite) into structural modules weighing up to 1000 tonnes, and these can be hoisted into place. Construction is speeded up.

Many are larger than predecessors. Increasingly they involve international collaboration.

However, certification of designs is on a national basis, and is safety-based

Another feature of some new designs is modular construction. Large structural and mechanical sections of the plant of up to 1000 tonnes each are manufactured in factories or on site adjacent to the plant and lifted into place, potentially speeding construction.

A contrast between the 1188 MWe Westinghouse reactor at Sizewell B in the UK and the modern Westinghouse AP1000 of similar power illustrates the evolution from 1970-80 types. First, the AP1000 footprint is very much smaller – about one-quarter the size, secondly the concrete and steel requirements are lower by a factor of five*, and thirdly it has modular construction. A single unit has 149 structural modules broadly of five kinds, and 198 mechanical modules of four kinds: equipment, piping & valve, commodity, and standard service modules. These comprise one-third of all construction and can be built offsite in parallel with the onsite construction.

* Sizewell B: 520,000 m3 concrete (438 m3/MWe), 65,000 t rebar (55 t/MWe);
AP1000: <100,000 m3 concrete (90 m3/MWe, <12,000 t rebar (11 t/MWe).

At Sanmen and Haiyang in China, where the first AP1000 units were grid connected in August 2018, the first module lifted into place weighed 840 tonnes. More than 50 other modules used in the reactors’ construction weigh more than 100 tonnes, while 18 weigh in excess of 500 tonnes.

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It doesn’t need to be a “training ground” to discourage people from sticking to the area for long term rewards that scale well with experience. It could scale to a middling [hard] skill level and then have worse ROI (than other places in New Eden) or flat ROI. To encourage high [hard] skilled players to GTFO the CONCORD bubble (that in turn encourages players to solitary-confinement themselves) and instead begin socializing in the sandbox. Cause that’s kinda the point of an MMO.

Especially as CCP has nerfed the risks to people living in highsec over the years, there’s less and less justifiable reasons to keep the rewards in highsec so high. Going back to the roots of the game: “no risk no reward”.

The reason highsec markets are big has nothing to do with it “not being a training ground” and to allege otherwise is disingenuous.

Why should people be discouraged? I see highsec as just as valid place to play as anywhere else. If other areas aren’t as popular they should be improved to encourage people to go elsewhere too, but I don’t see highsec as somehow less and don’t feel a need to drive people out of it. You’re never going to be able to force social interaction in an MMO, and how much people want to socialise will vary day to day. Highsec isn’t inherently antisocial though.

The are other places with less risk and far more reward though. Here we’re talking about mining and mining is already one of the worst ways to accrue wealth in highsec. I don’t even know why anyone would choose to mine belt ore in highsec as you could do anything else and earn enough to buy more ore/minerals that you could mine in the same time.

I didn’t raise markets as an indicator of a training ground, I raised it because it’s very high earning, very safe and predominantly in highsec. If we were to follow the “no risk, no reward” pattern then all highsec taxes should be so high that it becomes impossible to compete, like 50% sales taxes and such. My feeling is thought that the arguments against mining have very little to do with risk/reward balance and more to do with irrational hatred of people playing a certain way.

With regards to this change, we still don’t know any of the details but if anoms with limited amounts of high end minerals are added to high sec, I don’t think it would be in any way game breaking. I’m sure it’ll still be far more rewarding to mine ore elsewhere and I’m sure ore mining will still be the worst possible way to earn income.

I’m curious as to your view on moon mining though. A 25% reduction is fairly substantial, and moon mining requires a war eligible structure and encourages players working together. I personally would have added high end minerals to moon pulls to encourage people to fight over moons more, rather than discourage moon mining as they seem to be doing.

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You read way too much into what I said:

Sure, there’s nothing “inherently, objectively invalid” about wanting to stay in an area with rewards that at a certain point stop scaling, not talk to anyone else in the game, and sit staring at a rock all day.

Which agrees with your:

…but the “validity of a playstyle” doesn’t have anything to do about whether it should be rewarded disproportionately from the risk, its a herring of a topic.

You make high sec dangerous again.

Multiboxing scales well in multiple dimensions. So you have to balance it along a dimension it doesn’t scale well in: human attention. The only remaining driving force left today is ganking. There used to be other dangers to your typical high sec multiboxer, but CCP Games has gotten rid of those playstyles (and lost a lot of high sec players who were pvp combat pilots).

This forces a solo would-be-multiboxer to consider the following:

  • Staying in high sec, accepting the dangers, but accepting the now-proportionate rewards when scaling up.
  • Joining a corp in any space, where friends can better guarantee their safety.
    • Bonus: if the “any space” is “not high sec”, they get increased rewards.

This also benefits people who don’t multibox:

  • They have an attention advantage that keeps their losses low and ship safe.
  • Inattentive multiboxing doesn’t put as much ore on the market, increasing the value of the remaining ore that does go on the market, net rewarding their gameplay for the increased danger.

But, of course, the above tends to elicit very unhappy replies. Because a lot of people that want to A) Be alone, B) multibox, and C) stay in high sec also (often by implication) want D) to not be punished for being inattentive. Which is fine, but then you limit the discussion into the realm of:

  • The only way to nerf multiboxing is to nerf everyone
    • Thus, people who don’t multibox are pressured to do so in the disgusting name of “progression”
      • CCP Games wins because more Omegas.
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Just because they aren’t interacting with people in local doesn’t mean they aren’t interacting with people in game. I don’t mine but I don’t always fly with a fleet of people either, but I’m almost always engaging with other people in other channels or on comms.

Can you quantify this balance in any way though? As I see it there are other things rewarded more with similar risk to mining. Even looking within mining, ice mining is similar risk to ore mining but far more rewarding. By what metric is mining

When has highsec ever been dangerous for multiboxers? More importantly when has it ever been more dangerous for multiboxers than for individual pilots?

Is your aim really to balance risk/reward or is it just to create more targets? Like if CCP added brutal rats that took actual combat power to take down and that scaled in quantity with the number of pilots in a belt, that would add a scaled risk that affected fleets more than individual pilots and require on-grid combat support. Would that be acceptable, or does the risk have to come from other players?

You talk about joining a corp, but people now can join corps. Before the war changes a lot of people just operated out of NPC corps because forming up a corp with other pilots made you a target. I just don’t think you can punish people into playing a certain way.

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All you need to do is to turn off Abyssal activation in high sec. In one fell strike, all huge, risk free rewards are gone from high sec and people only have L4 missions left to do. It is beyond me why abyssals are allowed to be activated in high sec anyway. The rewards are at ridiculously badly out of balance with the risk these instanced sites pose.

Abyssals need to be limited to dangerous security spaces. That will put the high reward, high risk where it belongs, stops their abuse in safe space, and encourages trade and goods movement between secure and insecure space via any means available.

No, that’s not the point of an MMO. The point of an MMO is to provide the potential for people to interact with each other, not force them to do so all the time. Playing alone on my own is perfectly fine in an MMO, that’s well within the definition of an MMO as long as there other players around that might interact with me at some point. If that wasn’t the case, CCP had never implemented Solo Abyssals and went for fleet abyssals only. They’d also not do duo arena events but only team battles to force people to play with other people against other people.

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And here is where communication between us begins to break down.

Your arguments are just a smokescreen for trying to dismiss other people via a vain search for a boogeymen, and take cheap shots at other people. I pointed this out where you did it in your last post, I’m pointing it out again here. You’re starting to establish a pattern.

Anyway, if you can get past assuming things about me, more substantive reply below:

Can you quantify this balance of risk/reward in any way, though?

If not, then there’s no point in asking me the same question, because I can’t meet you in the middle.

Yes. (Edit: sorry, misread, thought it said “Has Highsec ever”)

Pre-Crimewatch 2.0.

Pre-Crimewatch 2.0 plus friendly fire (so circa 2012 and before).

Like a “diamond npc mining response” style of fleet that hunted and attacked miners in high sec? No objections from me, sounds great.

So, whats the problem you have with replacing those NPCs with players? Would-be victims can easily add players to contacts as red, see their ships on D-scan without it being cluttered, and see their names in local the instant they spawn. Would-be victims can diplo players, pay them off, or hire them as protection. These are all defensive tools that would be lost with NPCs and make the NPCs far more difficult to avoid, so in a way you’re proposing a far more extreme idea than I, so you can imagine why I’m fine with it.

EDIT: Plus NPCs actually stressing the tanks of miners gives ample opportunities for existing gankers to use less ships, so it reduces that multiboxing problem too.

This is not true, it was just a question which I followed up with another questions about NPCs adding risk. I’m not assuming anything about you in particular but your responses do seem to be driving towards a view of “the only solution is to let me shoot more people in high sec”.

So what was changes as part of crimewatch 2.0 that reduced risk for multiboxers? What changes do you feel CCP could bring in that would re-establish that risk?

Rats can be programmed to respond to particular styles of play, much like ice belt spawns are actually dynamically timed based on factors related to how quickly they are mined out and how many people are mining them. Players won’t, and as we’ve seen from current highsec PvP pilots, for all the talk of hating “bots” and such, they mostly target solo pilots. It’s rare to see a gank fleet break up a multibox miner fleet.

So I believe that if safety were reduced in high sec, all that would happen is solo pilots and smaller corporations would be destroyed in greater numbers while multibox fleets carried on as if nothing had changed. Maybe they’d drop back to being in NPC corps.

To keep some semblance of the actual topic though, if they do add these anoms to highsec, do you think that would upset the risk/reward balance in any meaningful way? My feeling is that it would still be right down at the bottom of the reward pile and at most would pull some miners off of ice.

In my earlier post I asked about you view on the moon mining changes too. I’m still interested in an answer there, because moon mining is fundamentally a group activity and requires some exposure to risk, both in the sec status of the system and the need to have a structure that can be attacked. A reduction in moon yield seems to me to drive the people away from group activity.

If you knew anything about me you know my gameplay doesn’t involve shooting anyone in high sec in the first place.

The elimination of all sorts of suspect baiting and wardeccing which was how people would effectively control high sec systems and allow “miners with teeth” to essentially fend out highsec rabble scum. Your NPC proposal would re-establish a form of that risk, but without introducing more player agency. That’s fine, but I think solutions could be better.

So,

  1. Programming costs money vs humans pay CCP money
  2. While certain behaviors are dynamic, the actual programming is not. Humans are for more dynamic than any code written to a text file. Unless you’re talking next-level ML style of solutions, which just drives up costs more.
  3. I don’t agree with your latter statement. I see plenty of examples of ganked Orcas that are the boosting ship for a multibox fleet.

OK. You basically don’t agree with me on “making things more dangerous via players will disproportionately hurt multiboxers” because NPCs will be “better” [for some definition of “better”] at targeting them, which to me sounds unbelievable. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. I have my lived experience of the 2010s knowing that high sec was chock full of thriving small corporations everywhere as counter evidence, I wish I could give that qualia of experience to you. But I can’t.

Yeah, any change CCP ever makes that results in a metric in the negative direction is always going to elicit a “death of X” or “I’m quitting because of X” or “think of the newbies because of X” or “X is harming (insert desirable cherrypicked thing)” because Eve Online is full of instrumentalist-philosophy players that believe the bigger the number reflects how “good” they are at a game and their sense of “positive self-worth” and sense of “fun”.

Fine, but I don’t think that way.

Either people like moon mining or they didn’t and this change will be a very sad excuse for instrumentalist players to quit (especially given the recent memory of Scarcity), other people that subscribe to the free-play philosophy understand that.

How did that affect multiboxers? I remember fleets of NPC miners run by people who know what suspect baiting is. Mass wardeccing only prevented people from forming into corporations, and suspect baiting is a way to attack people who don’t know any better yet.

I agree, but when you’re looking for a specific outcome you’re unlikely to get it by letting players pick and choose. Why would people take harder targets over softer ones when there’s no difference in reward? That said the goal is only to add more risk, scaled by player activity so that a multiboxer has scaled risk to solo players. It’s not actually to prevent multiboxing.

Define “plenty”. I rarely ever see a multibox fleet disrupted in any way, let alone by being ganked. Far more solo players are affected.

History just shows us that players don’t go after multiboxers. NPCs however can be scaled to the number of players on a grid and that can be greater than 1:1 scaling, so multiboxers with more characters on grid will be affected far more than solo players or small groups. It doesn’t need advanced AI to do that kinds of scaling, loads of games have scaled difficulty based on number of players (Diablo for example).

Not really, it’s about risk/reward. Risks of moon mining will remain unchanged, but reward will be reduced by 25%. Of course that’s going to impact how many people choose to do it. It’s not an excuse, it’s a reasonable assessment for people to make. Plenty of corps use moon mining as one way to create wealth that they use to fund things like SRP, so to an extent that number does drive the fun.

best quotes to prove you are right are your own quotes referencing more of your own quotes

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I’m not going to go point by point. I disagree with most of what you said. I will elaborate below, say my piece, and probably not respond much more, we just disagree on fundamentals.

HIstory shows gankers, mass-wardeccers, and friendly-firers generally picked the softest target with the most reward: multiboxing miners who were slow to warp their exhumers off the field. Suspect baiters did tend to go after solo type players, so all we’re really arguing about is “how we remember it back in my day” which is just old people doing a he-said she-said.

I know you are looking for a specific outcome as well, and I firmly believe letting pre-coded NPCs be the mechanism is not going to obtain the desired outcome. See: this playerbase’s manipulation of every other kind of NPC. For god’s sake, there are specialized fits and tactics for hunting of NPC haulers that defeats the whole point of response fleets existing in the first place. Let alone every other kind of diamond FOB, NPC anomaly & DED site, and heck even zeroing away gate guns, explosive clouds in nullsec gas mining, just about every NPC related entity in the game is a known solved problem. Putting the tools in the hands of players never guarantees to the developers an outcome. But it fundamentally:

  1. lets players exert agency more richly, which
  2. adds a great deal of color and character to the universe, which
  3. gets people motivated to log in, which
  4. NPCs will never be able to provide a similar motivation

Moon mining reward did not decrease by 25%. What did the patch change? That’s right, total rock size volume decreased by an amount. Rock volume and mining reward are certainly correlated but not the same. The ISK price of moon materials will fluctuate on the market and smart miners will be able to turn the reduced volume into a simillar sized reward instead of simply taking the punch to the face. In fact, they’ll make even more if this change convinces other miners to do other things than moon mine. There are always upsides and downsides to every change this conversation continues to reflect that we’re just cherrypicking: there are never numbers to prove one way or the other, so of course we are here just spouting our default beliefs.

Mentioning “other games” is a gigantic warning sign for me. This game isn’t Diablo. It isn’t all those “WoW-killers” like Rift, Aeon, Terra, LotR Online, Wildstar (worth checking in and seeing how are they doing today!). And it isn’t WoW – how are those complex WoW NPC mechanics going on these days and how are those player behaviors shaped? Oh, that’s right, these WoW players all have successfully min/maxed optimizing NPC content into computerized software so that players install a “do what plugin tells you to do” mindless raiding client aid, and they’re motivated by doing the activity with friends and actively shame people that don’t use plugins. What a terrific culture. That was sarcasm.

If a 25% moon rock volume is going to hurt whatever group’s reward then IMO that’s the tough and unforgiving natural selection nature of Eve in action. They should have figured out how to be smarter to take advantage of the market, instead of whining about how it’s going to end their group play.

Why are so many null-bears so concerned about people living in High-Sec? You really want more people to join one of the giant blobs? Is that what null needs?

If people want to live in null good for them, if people want to live in high-sec good for them…null bears should stop being fixated on what people in high-sec do.

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The do pick the softest targets, but that is rarely multiboxers. Multiboxers don’t field fleets of billions without being well tanked and prepared. The softest targets tend to be new players with badly fit ships and barely the skills to run them. Multiboxers also avoid wardecs and friendly fire, always have. I don’t know where you get this idea that multiboxers used to constantly throw themselves into dangerous and easily avoidable situations.

Reward doesn’t really play into it as short of faction modules there’s very little reward in blowing up miners.

I’m not looking for any outcome. This is a topic on the new anoms, and I think they’ll have very little impact. The conversation got dragged onto multiboxers but overall I don’t think that multiboxers are a problem, and I seriously doubt CCP will ever try to push them out. I just don’t agree with this narrative that creating more PvP risk is a solution even if multiboxers were a problem, because multiboxers are always going to be better at avoiding the risks than new players.

I didn’t say it was Diablo, I just challenged your idea that advanced AI is needed to scale difficulty to number of players and that was one example of super simple difficulty parameters that scale well.

So if the end result is fewer corps and less PvP, you’re fine with that? It’s 25% reduction in output from the moon so the structure cost the same to put up, operate and defend but the reward is lower. There are certainly going to be corps where their operating profit is lower than 25% who would now be making a net loss from mining a moon. Sure, it’ll mostly be smaller, growing corps, but screw them, right? Get everyone blitzing L4s.

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It is not.

Of course not.

See above: I sincerely doubt a 25% moon volume reduction will lead to that. The result is not hypocrisy.

That’s fair of you to not believe it.

I don’t have much more to say except it’s not a “narrative”, it’s just my opinion.