[Event] The way forward

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
121

Antagonistic? They were a response. Those sanctions were applied as the result of the Kingdom massacring millions of innocent people at Kahah, something that should be seen as wrong even by Amarrian customs (and it’s certainly a violation of Amash-Akura’s laws of warfare), and the Empire, after being given the chance to rein in our new vassal, refused to condemn it.

The Empire has had every opportunity to avoid these sanctions. We were given clear warning, and we chose to ignore it in order to defend the Kingdom. It was us who provoked them, it was us who deserved them. All because we’ve decided to bow and scrape to our new Khanid overlords, even as they drag Amarr into their mess. How can Catiz keep backing them after the Kingdom’s actions caused so much damage to Tash-Murkon businesses?

Catiz and Sarum and xer Qosh think the best way to lift the sanctions is to threaten an escalation to the war? And you and everyone else thinks that the right compromise in this situation is for the Republic to submit? No, this was our sin, and we were punished for our sin. That we then respond to that punishment with yet another sin is wrong.

The Republic, if it has any diplomatic fortitude at all, is going to throw xer Qosh’s demands in his face. As I said before, if this situation was reversed you can be damn sure the Empire would never submit to such direct gunship diplomacy. If we did, it would be cowardice and weakness, and demonstrate to the whole cluster that we will concede to any strongman who points a gun at us. What we would likely do instead, is threaten equivalent retaliation for any harm done to us. The right response for the Republic in this case is to threaten equivalent or higher damage to Imperial citizens in systems it occupies, in pursuance of a deterrence strategy.

This is basic diplomacy.

Now, yes, it would be great if both sides could come to the table and negotiate a de-escalation of hostilities. We absolutely need to step back and cool down. But one-sided demands are not the answer. The compromise in this case is not going to be ‘we stop threatening you if you lower sanctions’. The Empire is going to have to give a little more than that. Most likely, condemnation of the Kingdom’s actions at Kahah and assurances against using such heavy handed means of putting down slave rebellions in the future, and redaction of the threats of enslavement in the warzone, in exchange for the dropping of sanctions. It’s possible we could get by with just assurances against indiscriminate “pacification” methods, as that’d still be indirectly condemning the actions of the Kingdom – and the late Idonis Ardishapur, for that matter – without the indignity of admitting it outright.

I’m sure other things would come up too, such as Republic interference in Amarrian territory (like the CONCORD-sanctioned RJD campaign against illegal slavers awhile back), sharing of information recovered from Orlon Zashev, coordinating efforts in investigating deathglow attacks, including launching an investigation into Lord Chakaid (who, last I heard, the Republic considers a suspect behind the Rens bombing).

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122

Ok, you want to talk about something more important? How about U’K doubling down on focusing on defending a dead planet over a very much alive one? People did bring up that if you can’t focus on taking Floseswin alone, then ask for help. I would help you, even though it’d just be my lonesome self, but I sure as hell can’t fight for an entire system by myself and I don’t franky know enough people any more to gather a fighting force to help me. If I did, I would.

Granted, I should’ve voiced my opinion in the meeting itself, but I guess I still weren’t completely recovered from four days earlier and my thoughts were an unfocused mess.

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123

Ah if only Ushra’Khan were not the only Minmatar capable of such a task?

It is difficult times for the Minmatar people, as always. But Ushra’Khan will be there if Sarum comes… which I doubt as the Amarr in their hearts are cowards. Any human that needs a slave is such and should be treaty without respect or mercy.

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It is not, but it is already a part of the CEMWPA conflict and thus able to affect system ownership.

Why not… Prevent them from coming in the first place?

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Sarum is doing this outside of CEMWPA, the proxy ownership of this system will not stop Sarum.

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Maybe not. It would at the very least give CONCORD potential sanctions more ammunition, if nothing else.

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Maybe, But Concord want most of Ushra’Khan dead so lets call that someone elses problem.

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A response to domestic issues the RJD likely had a hand in fomenting.

Childish hyperbole, the sanctions were based on politics not sin.

Reclaiming as sin… you’re familiar enough with scripture that I’ll leave that hanging

The Republic will as ever do as the Federation bids it, which will in all probability be maintain sanctions.

This from the hypocrite who raided the estates of the man who freed her family. A man she herself told me was ‘dutiful and decent’. You have a perceptive grasp of scripture, but through the lens of a lost slave seeking purpose.

Every time you rail against it you make such condemnation less likely, you should remember how our people close ranks when presented with external criticism.
Your fall from grace was a betrayal, of your brothers and sisters of the Sacred Throne, of everyone you claim to speak for, of all those among the reclaimed who aspired to your accomplishments.

Without any particular respect, the Republic nor the Federation consult the Empire on their law enforcement.

Whatever your qualms concerning Duke Chakaid, his successes or failures are the business of his liege, and by extension the Empress.

Perhaps they have some evidence, but I find it more likely they as you simply dislike him.

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129

Barricading slave communities into their districts and then indiscriminately bombarding them, regardless of which of them, if any, were actually involved in any rebellion (or were only involved because they were victims of deathglow chemical weapons attacks, which wears off in ~48 hours) is absolutely sin, and deserves to be punished. Amarr refused to do so ourselves, thus those outside our borders did so in our stead. We should not have to be relying on foreigners to correct our own mistakes, we should have the courage and decency to do it ourselves.

The violation of treaties that we have signed is sin.

And quite frankly, yes, I am of the mind now that enslavement of civilian populations is a violation of Amash-Akura’s laws of war and a sin, regardless of the justifications made during the Udorian Wars.

Foreign policy aimed at discouraging negative aspects of another nation’s activities are hardly new. Again, basic diplomacy. One would, for example, expect the Empire to push foreign policy initiatives aimed at protecting Amarrian faithful who live within the Federation and the Republic from harm suffered because of their beliefs, especially when it appears that harm is systemic in the Federation’s or the Republic’s government.

I will answer the rest of your points in off-topic.

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130

Not the point I argued. Only that sin was not the source of the sanctions.

You invite and participate in one intervention after the next, all it does is entrench the very things you claim to oppose.

Perhaps, but the weight of theological opinion seems to reach a different consensus

They are known to do so, and to my knowledge we do not tell either nation how to run their affairs in that respect.

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Surely you two could find some golden chapel to drone on with your repetitive Amarrian rhetoric?

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Forgive me for defending the Republic’s position in this. I’ll leave all of you proper Matari to it, then.

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Pretty sure Pol did not mean “stop defending the Republic”, though.

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Samira makes some valid points but when it gets dragged into a point for point argument with the likes of Slaver Yassavi they get lost.

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135

You think you sound very macho but this is just ignorant prejudice. It would be nice if you refrained from using Gallente in the sense of lily-livered polite people, because this is what goes in in the friggin’ Federation Senate:

just before the Federal Senate convened for debate this morning, Senator Nakula Chattarak punched Senator Suvio Bellaron in the face, breaking his nose and sending him tumbling down the auditorium stairs. Senator Chattarak is … Suvio’s junior by several decades.

Talk about basic respect for one’s elders and all that.

Now seriously, the last several dozen comments make a mockery of Ms. Rhiannon’s

Should Matari participants be too uncomfortable with outside access I shall limit it, of course. It is of paramount importance we can speak without performing.

This thread is quickly turning into nothing but performance for outsiders.

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136

Well, I’m sorry, but anyone expecting civil and polite discourse on such a divisive topic, in my opinion, simply doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

If you want quiet respectful discourse, it wasn’t the place. People are happy no one got grievously injured.

Complaints about “manners” just sound like mewling from babes who really should have thicker skin if they want to get involved in issues such as this.

TLDR: Shockingly, the rebels and fighters where actually noisy and disorderly. I don’t know what you where expecting. Tea and crumpets?

We’re not politicians and people know that, so acting all hurt is a performance on it’s own.

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137

I wasn’t expecting polite discourse, but I was expecting that people would respect turns to speak. It is tradition. Stuff you guys claim to honor, but apparently in lipservice as it is only when it suits you.

I think the one doing a performance here is you. “Hurrurr us minmatar are rowdy rebels rarrr gallente roo”

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138

I’l be be framing that for my wall.

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I never said anything about ‘random bloodlust’. I said they wanted an excuse. Sarum’s wanted to do this for a long time, but prior to the reorganization, they weren’t in sole control of that section of the warzone, and so couldn’t act unilaterally. Nor were they officially permitted the kind of House naval forces they’d want to have before beginning a campaign.

House Sarum has taken pride in their military prowess, you mean. Funnily enough, the people I’ve known who most take pride in military service… tend to not want war, because war tends to leave people on their side as dead as the people on the other side, and getting good people killed needlessly is the act of fools who cannot think beyond their own need to kill. That doesn’t mean they don’t take pride in being extremely good at it when it happens, or that they don’t enjoy the hell out of the visceral, primal release of it, but they don’t tend to go looking for it. In this cluster, it’s a sure bet that if you stand still for a few minutes, war will find you.

Responsibility for Sarum’s actions lies with Sarum, just as I am solely responsible for my own actions. Just because I have a motive doesn’t mean the other person is responsible for my actions. As an example:

  • The Culture used to live in Fountain. While they lived in Fountain, they built supercapitals for many of our enemies. We didn’t like that, so we attacked their shipyards. Our attacks had motive, and purpose, and it was rooted in responding to something they did, that we didn’t like. At no point was The Culture responsible for our attacks on their shipyards. We were responsible for our attacks on their shipyards. Nobody else.

Other’s actions may have provide an underlying cause, but to claim that is the same as being ‘responsible’ is simply wrong. It would mean that a star has some ‘responsibility’ for the financial costs of properly shielding space-borne environments from UV radiation. It doesn’t. The star is not subject to any legal or moral judgment about the effects of its existence, or the actions people take in reaction to the conditions it creates.

The only ones responsible for the actions of Sarum and the Amarr Empire, are Sarum, and the Amarr Empire.

If you don’t like the sanctions, maybe address the reasons for them. These sanctions, at their root, are nothing more than the international version of ‘I don’t like how your store treats its workers, I’ll shop elsewhere’. Nothing entitles the Empire to the trade it’s losing. Nothing obligates the Federation or Republic to do business with the Empire. So, either be the kind of store people want to support, or get used to not having their ISK flow through your hands.

‘If you don’t shop here, I’ll shoot your cousin’, on the other hand… that sounds pretty damned petulant, don’t it?

Almost as petulant as…

… claiming the RJD was behind the Blooder attack on Kahah that precipitated an Imperial vassal state’s atrocities against its own civilians. I mean, really now. This is dishonest and foolish, even for you. And while yes, I know you don’t much care how I think of you, there’s a lot more than me reading this thread. The Amarr may find your dishonest stupidity useful now, but don’t think they aren’t taking note of it as something to be watchful for in internal matters.

I disagree. That response cedes any moral high ground the Republic has. Rather, I’d say the right response would be tightening and escalation of sanctions, while the Republic Fleet moves to interdict any and all attempted traffic to Floseswin IV and other worlds under threat. Anything wanting to go in or out has to submit to inspection, or be seized. Make it clear the Republic does not want open, unlimited warfare, but that they will take steps to prevent state-sponsored terrorism and ethnic cleansing programs against their citizens.

Yeah, cuz they sure bid us to attack them in Colelie, didn’t they?

Well, I’m sorry, but expecting Matari to respect the damned traditions of the Standing Place that go back to literally before we can remember seems like a no-brainer. It’s literally one of the oldest traditions of the Tribes, and excuses for why people can’t be assed to respect our own bloody traditions is just weak, Isha. Nobody’s getting all up in arms about ‘civil and polite discourse’, and it doesn’t take more than a damned toddler to understand ‘wait your bloody turn’.

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The Republic having space superiority would make rather a lot of difference when it comes to ground operations for Sarum.

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