Eve's true disease - Goonswarm

[Faylee_Freir]

@DeMichael_Crimson

Obviously you misunderstood my analogy, my point was about getting detailed info about the mission before actually engaging it. Rushing in blindly is just plain foolhardy.

I’m not saying rushing in blindly. I just think that if CCP were to add some variables or elements of surprise that it would make missions more engaging. It’s quite literally the same feeling when you’re playing any MMO and you have the content on “farm status”. It’s cool that you would try unconventional fits that aren’t your typical setups for running the stuff in order to push yourself as well as the ship.

I dunno I just hear a lot of complaining about bland missions.

@DeMichael_Crimson

When you say ‘Emergent Gameplay’ I take it you’re actually referring to Suicide Ganking in high sec systems. Using that term is just another attempt to justify doing Grief Gameplay. Anyway, it seems to me CCP is definitely making little changes to that in order to pull in and retain more players. Granted they won’t implement drastic changes overnight for fear of losing a large amount of players so those changes are being implemented in little bits over time.

When I say emergent gameplay, I’m referring to anything that’s out of the box, and not directly designed or created by CCP. When players take the games mechanics and combine some creativity. Hyperdunking (rip) and freighter bumping come to mind as well-known niches of emergent gameplay.

We have very different definitions of “grief gameplay” and I believe that yours is more or less being killed when you don’t want to be. To some extent, some of the stuff maybe could be considered griefing but they are within the rules and boundaries of the game.

The game we play can be a cold and ruthless one, but those that do everything they can to protect themselves from “emergent gameplay” most of the times end up being able to laugh at it because they don’t die to it. It’s an aspect of the game that forces players to self-improve or die.

[Rowdy_Ronny]

@Faylee_Freir

I dunno I just hear a lot of complaining about bland missions.

No one ‘missionned’ them over and over telling them they should mission because “that is what eve is all about”. And everyone can choose what to do freely. Some people like the missions and have a great time doing them either alone or in small or larger groups.

[yellow_parasol]

I’m sorry, but why does that matter? It feels like people are arguing against better missions, that aren’t the same ■■■■ over and over again and easy as ■■■■ to do.

[Jenn_aSide]

@yellow_parasol

It feels like people are arguing against better missions, that aren’t the same ■■■■ over and over again and easy as ■■■■ to do.

Some of us are arguing against a false idea. That false idea is that ‘better’ means ‘dynamic’ missions that are ‘challenging’ and whatnot. It’s nonsense. It’s one of those things people say (think) they want when in reality they don’t.

Look at all the ‘more challenging’ PVE (like incursions, drifters, sleepers, burners, clone soldiers, epic arcs, ghost sites, NPC mining operations etc) CCP has added since 2009. Most of it goes unused or underused. You know what does gets used? Missions, Complexes and Anomalies, the majority of which date back to 2005 or earlier.

Usage means something. Watching what people do (missions, anomalies, and complexes) is more important than listening to what they say (“I want better PVE” while ignoring almost all the PVE that has been added post 2009).

When it comes to PVE (since 2009), CCP has repeated the Walmart Mistake.

Sorry for the soap boxing, but as a PVE player its annoying to see the same mistaken thinking pop up time and time again. We now return to our regularly scheduled Goon bashing thread.

[Rowdy_Ronny]

@yellow_parasol

It feels like people are arguing against better missions

Define better. Because they can make it harder by just increasing variables. They could add player made missions, but… why would people need that as this is a sandbox and no one prevents you from making missions. Also most player made missions will at best be copy and pastes from 4chan for 99.99%. Why? Because contracts, see? Player made, unless CCP is adding all those crappy contracts to hide the awesome player contracts of hauling and opportunities. I did find good contracts once in a while, but it’s like looking for a chocolate cookie in the sewers.

[yellow_parasol]

There’s not really much room for player made missions. The current game mechanics make it a huge effort for providing missions to others, and i’m certainly not just talking about courier contracts, or “fetch me this item” contracts. For player made missions to be viable, there’d need to be some sort of automation available, otherwise anyone trying to do such a thing would just burn out, because he’d have to set up everything for every runner specifically.

Same for races. People say “you can do that”, but these people don’t even consider the insane amount of effort it takes to build a racetrack using cans or depts. It’s a huge time waster, discouraging people from doing things. Anyone saying “so what?” would only show how people really think about others trying to create content.

Or maybe i just don’t understand you.

[yellow_parasol]

People want less crap, that triggers them into buying things, being visible. Of course sales go down when this happens. this isn’t at all comparable to what we have here. The buyers at walmart want less crap, clutter and more room. That’s directly the opposite of what Walmarts wants, because more clutter and stuff triggers more people into buying more things. The customers are right, but it’s bad for Walmart’s sales.

[Jenn_aSide]

And bad for sales is bad for the company

. When the company makes a unique one of a kind game, that ends up bad for US. Which is the point. You can give people what they say they want and watch the game decline while developers wastes multiple man/years making PVE that people end up not doing, or you can give them what they need (in this case, it’s simplicity and easy access, which is the allure of missions, complexes and anomalies) and keep them paying and playing.

A better illustration of the idea is myth 21. “Better PVE” is the equivalent of the “Dark, Rich, hearty roast” coffee Malcolm Gladwell talks about in his TED talk.

Inside that link is another link to the main reason why I tend to oppose a lot of PVE ideas people have.

Neuropsychologist Susan Weinschenk argues that you shouldn’t believe people when they say they’d prefer certain changes in your product. They probably overestimate their future reactions.

People say they want better PVE , but when CCP provided it they kept doing missions and anoms, pretty much proving the above linked articles. I say, give us more missions and anoms and stop wasting effort on fancy AI and ‘dynamic experiences’.

[yellow_parasol]

I didn’t mean to say that you’re wrong; the walmart example was just bad and not related. What you’re talking about, is that the instinct driven players are expressing their direct needs, asking for things that trigger their brain’s reward systems into higher gear. Aka the old fixes have worn out (tolerance is a bitch), so the brain comes up with the desire for a bigger fix.

You’re right, but it’s not just the PvE crowd, not even as a whole anyway. Independently of PvE, it makes people create ridiculous suggestions that involve “bigger”, “faster”, “better”, “shinier”, “more rewards”, “higher rewards”, “achievements”, “trophies”, “medals”. All of them, or some of them. There’s a higher rate of such requests coming from the PvE crowd, though. I’ve noticed that. Could be, because PvPers can’t afford to work that way mentally, because such a mindless state would get them more easily killed more often.

Anyhow… Of course, listening to these guys only leads to desaster. They have to be treated like animals instead, where you throw them a bone that’s equal to the last bone, but slightly tweaked. Anything that resets their tolerance, and restarts the programmed drive to gain more and more. From my 50ish years old hardcore MMO endgame playing friend I’ve learned that these people can be programmed to be doing the same ■■■■, hundreds of times, over and over and over again. Hundreds and thousands of hours of repetition under the control of lower instincts, which are easily controlled by game companies.

The vast majority of MMOs are fundamentally equal for a good reason.

tldr;

Yeah i agree. The last thing these people could deal with is actual change towards what they want, because they have no ing clue what that actually is. They’re equal to drug addicts, only caring about a stronger fix.

[Teckos_Pech]

@DeMichael_Crimson

Yeah, I enjoy doing PvE content in Eve. I mainly do exploration and lv 4 Epic Arcs. I find it engaging and I also refer to all the various guides available.

Players can make PvE content more engaging and challenging just by using different tactics and ship hulls, for example run lv 4 security missions in Assault Frigates or fleet up with friends and use HAC’s in high level exploration sites. There’s plenty of ways to make PvE content more engaging if that’s the goal.

I highly endorse using walk thru guides and Eve Survival mission reports for updated intel. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. In fact Military forces around the world always have pre-mission briefings with up to date detailed intelligence reports prior to going into battle.

If you wanna do PvP then go join FW or RvB, go cruise around in low sec or head out to null sec or even jump into w-holes, there’s plenty of PvP content available there. When so called PvP players say they can’t find any PvP content so they’re creating PvP content by suicide ganking mining and industrial ships in high sec systems, that’ just a piss-pore excuse used to justify griefer gameplay.

I was with you right up to the end. It is a sandbox. If some people want to go and suicide gank…let them. That is the nature of the game, do what you want within the rules of the game.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Faylee_Freir

I don’t look down on mission runners or miners. I accept their gameplay and how it contributes to what makes this game great.

For the record nor do I. If somebody’s idea of a good evening is logging in and chewing rocks and making stuff…okay fine. What ever floats your boat.

Again do what you want within the rules of the game. But realize that the rules let others interact with you and in ways you may not like. That you do not like it is not against the rules or bad…well okay you might think it is bad, but only because you have the wrong out look, IMO.

[Teckos_Pech]

@DeMichael_Crimson

When you say ‘Emergent Gameplay’ I take it you’re actually referring to Suicide Ganking in high sec systems. Using that term is just another attempt to justify doing Grief Gameplay. Anyway, it seems to me CCP is definitely making little changes to that in order to pull in and retain more players. Granted they won’t implement drastic changes overnight for fear of losing a large amount of players so those changes are being implemented in little bits over time.

No, emergent game play, or spontaneous order are terms to describe that type of behavior.

Take missions as a counter point. With missions you can pretty much min-max them. The way players run them is very predictable, and it was predictable even before the first player ran them.

Suicide ganking freighters on the other hand was not predictable. It depends on variables that are not easily discerned. That is with a mission you know what the rats will do, you know players will figure out how much DPS to tanks, etc. But with suicide ganking freighters part of it depends on another player. For example, I won’t be suicide ganked very often if at all becuase I:

1. Do not overload my JF.
2. I use a JF.
3. I tank my JF.
4. I have an emergency cyno.
5. I don’t fly through Uedama or Niarja as a general rule.

Suicide ganking freighters is dependent not just on the gankers but other players making foolish and imprudent decisions. Suicide ganking only happens because both sides act in ways to bring it about. One side does it inadvertently and the other side reacts to those players.

If those other players were not foolish and imprudent there would be no or very little suicide ganking of freighters.

So yes, it is emergent game play. Missions are like checkers. Suicide ganking is the result of much more complicated player interaction.

[guigui_lechat]

@Teckos_Pech

Suicide ganking only happens because both sides act in ways to bring it about. One side does it inadvertently and the other side reacts to those players.

This is simply false.
Suicide gankers also happen for no reason. People can just decide to kill freighters in uedama, with or without a gain. CODE. decide that it is fun to kill noobs when they try to mine for a new ship - without a gain.
Don’t try to make the victim the culprit.

What people consider retard is all the lies of CODE. They are NOT helping, they don’t care about a permit or whatever, they just want to piss people off the game.
They definitely can, I don’t really care. But they are assholles and need to stop defending themselves against being it, because saying they make people remain on Eve is a complete lie.

[Eve_Griefer]

Despite the title of the thread, it’s become quite clear that Goonswarm is not EVE’s true disease. It is my view that the true disease is not recognising a sandbox for what it is.

[Lord_Harrowmont]

Tldr

Salty cus got shrekt

[yellow_parasol]

Forum bingo.

@guigui_lechat

Suicide gankers also happen for no reason. People can just decide to kill freighters in uedama, with or without a gain. CODE. decide that it is fun to kill noobs when they try to mine for a new ship - without a gain.

Don’t try to make the victim the culprit.

What people consider retard is all the lies of CODE. They are NOT helping, they don’t care about a permit or whatever, they just want to piss people off the game.

They definitely can, I don’t really care. But they are assholles and need to stop defending themselves against being it, because saying they make people remain on Eve is a complete

no reason.

rewriting physics and psychology.

to kill noobs

The first half of the new player fallacy.

Don’t try to make the victim the culprit.

using the word victim, usually because everyone’s a victim of real life evil monsters.

What people consider retard is all the lies of CODE. They are NOT helping, they don’t care about a permit or whatever, they just want to piss people off the game.

Group attribution error and heavy bias

They definitely can, I don’t really care. But they are assholles and need to stop defending themselves against being it, because saying they make people remain on Eve is a complete lie.

Contradicting himself, insulting, ignoring factual history (recruiting by shooting) and ignoring CCP’s own words that shooting new players does not hurt retention, as evidenced by history. the second half of the new player fallacy, projection of ones own helplessness and victimhood onto everyone.

[Jonah_Gravenstein]

It gets better.

[CCP_Falcon]

This thread is closed, given the fact that you guys seem unable to have a civil conversation about the subject.

Do not re-open this topic.