Eve's War Dec Groups and who are they

A few things pushed smaller groups out of the activity / game or forced them to join the larger blanket dec groups in my opinion. The lack of interest, effort, or ability to adapt to these are some of the main culprits:

Watchlist Removal

For better or for worse it’s gone and it makes your scouting or profiling a group take more effort. Something that many players and groups were willing or able to do.

That doesn’t mean that hunting is dead, but hunting is much more of an activity for someone who isn’t lazy / spread too thin.

War HQ Changes

This is a big one in my opinion because the smaller groups knew that their larger enemies would just deny their content by consistently destroying their war HQ. Not seeking what most would consider a fun fight, but an overwhelming beating that you cannot really fight.

Prior to the War HQ change groups basically survived and attacked each other using evasive tactics like: log off traps, abusing certain mechanics, as well as scouts… neutral scouts everywhere. So for some groups it was nearly impossible to really have meaningful impact on them.

So when the smaller groups were put in a position where they now had to have a castle to knock over, many fled to the larger groups or quit. A side note is that everyone grouping together wasn’t only because of larger more oppressive wardec groups but because we knew that we were now going to have to deal with Nullsec and their even greater advantage of N+1.

War Immunity / Access Control Lists

So I get that war immunity has always existed simply by staying in an NPC corp and I get how being in a player corp is a vital part of the experience… where war immune corps become annoying for war dec groups is Access Control Lists (ACL). I don’t need to go into great detail but you basically reap all the benefits with none of the risk.

A good example of this is the groups that are war immune. They hide, protected from wardecs while running their mouths. Pretty annoying but the best we can do is try and target things they might care about… war eligible friends or structures. This transitions into the next one…

War are now about structures

Wars begin and end with structures. A ton of players in the previous version of wars absolutely hated structures… timers… not shooting at players. Shooting a structure very rarely results in a fight, and while I admit that I am approaching this from the view of a Blackflag member, I imagine if you select an active group you could probably get a fight on a structure.

Still the fact remains that wars aren’t about the players. I think CCP reviewed their data about players leaving in droves (which I think was flawed data but what do I know) due to wardecs and realized that wars should be about the structures. So yeah you can investigate and find out that this war immune group comprising of 40-man mining fleets owns that Athanor or Raitaru with their 1-man holding corp. you can absolutely go take out “their” structure, but for what result? You haven’t killed any player… only a structure that was manned by a single gunner if you’re lucky.

Decreased Playercount

Yeah this is a massive issue everywhere but it’s hard to want to properly hunt the way we have to now when PCU is ■■■■. Luckily Highsec is the most densely populated area of the game, but you have to sift through all the players that can’t be interacted with using a wardec.

I’m lucky that I get to play in both EUTZ and USTZ depending on how my job rotates. If I was a USTZ player only, I think I’d be finding another game to play.

Ganking

For the past decade you’ve seen more and more players dropping their wars in favor of ganking. The ability to be intentionally setup to attack any player at any time and not have the same restrictions as wars is nice. Granted there are a whole other set of restrictions and hoops to jump through, ganking has been the next step for many.

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That said, there are a few players that prove that if you can’t adapt or quit the game because of the above then you’re just weak or lazy. @God_Emperor_Kane is a good example of someone that when he feels like it can produce really impressive results solo. It’s what he was known for back before I started in 2012 and he can still pull it off today. So while Kane is able to produce results, I don’t think that the activity should be considered balanced or in a good state just because someone that’s always been known as a competent apex predator is able to pull it off.

From where I sit there are only 4 groups consistently using war decs: Blackflag, Wrecking Machine, Riot, and Pain & Compliance (don’t know much about them). I don’t count Bully Brigade or Nonni / Capstext because they are only after abandoned structures and aren’t interested in player interaction.

So @Githany_Red i know there’s gotta be smaller groups using wars on a regular basis but I would be willing to bet they’re concentrated in specific constellations or systems and nowhere near trade hubs since that would catch them in the crosshairs of either Blackflag or Riot. They probably only have a small handful of wars (3-5) as well.

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I happen to think this was in fact a correct assessment by CCP.

I was told today that CCP are intending to further improve structures, which means that most structures owners are now seriously concerned at yet another nerf or increased vulnerability coming their way.

It is interesting that you mention ACL’s, I have to say that while I see your point of view, the structure is still a valuable asset. Over time and continued destruction would there be a change into bigger hisec groups with more teeth? I am aware of a few big groups that do defend their assets but I have no idea if this is a trend yet, I always hoped it would.

Still bigger groups with important assets that others use from the ACL would become more valuable over time in the scenario where you remove most other structures, this was what I had envisioned, but I did not expect CCP to do that stupidity with remote repping so that allies could not rep each other, once that happened my hope of more defences was pretty much crushed. Because I don’t want to move corp and alliance to help in a damn war, so how could I expect others to do that. CCPlease…

Sadly you are just too big, well equipped and good for all but a few hisec groups. Success has a cost sadly.

This is the biggest issue (bigger than war HQ by comparison). While all the other things can be blamed on the players (e.g. “git gud” if you’re getting rolled by 20:1 odds from some null-sec entity), there’s literally no way to counteract what amounts to a simple “off switch” for wars. You simply can’t adapt to someone opting out of the system. It’s even worse than Dec Shield was 10 years ago. At least Dec Shield left a permanent stain on players’ records. Today, no one will even know or care about some holder corporation’s bad kill board efficiency.

The best way to respond to this shitty system would be to unite and ensure that no one else can operate a structure in high-sec. This would ensure that CCP either addresses the imbalance, or shuts down wars entirely, which would be an admission of defeat on their part, and would probably send EVE into yet another death spiral.

But I realize that that’s likely an unattainable goal due to the infighting that would occur, and also the significant amount of consistent effort involved.

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1 structure at a time :slight_smile:

The unfortunate truth is that if Highsec Wardec groups were to come even remotely close to completely controlling who can anchor structures in Highsec that Nullsec groups would roll in and N+1 us to death, at least a few times.

That’s one of my complaints with the WarHQ, is that it almost entirely favors N+1. Even with our battleships now having well over 500k EHP, if FRT showed up in force we’d get alphad.

I don’t think all of them would show up. Most of their players don’t care about that sort of content whatsoever. And those who do show up would be quickly lost to attrition, because they’re not high-sec players, and wouldn’t know how to deal with the danger during the “off hours.”

Also I doubt many of them would care about random high-sec structures, even if some of them belong to their members’ alts. Would you mobilize a 5,000-member alliance just to defend one member’s high-sec research lab? Probably not, right?

It’s doable, it would just take a lot of effort.

I did at the time think that more nullsec entities would have a campaign against hisec war deccers in lulls between nullsec wars. It is content…

Are you basing this on the low level ores being hisec only more than anything else, because that could be a driver, and validates your viewpoint on ACL’s in terms of nullsec entities, who definitely will not care about any hisec structure. So it looks like yet again hisec will have nasty changes coming its way because of nullsec activities… :popcorn:

I have to say that I now agree with Destiny here on this at this point, there are many things about hisec combat that are just not fun for nullsec, not least the reliance on bubbles. Still when you are in nullsec the idiots that get blapped moving around hisec are just laughable, I laughed when I turned my computer on this morning for example.

If you want the content you need to get one of the main alliance fleet FC’s alts in some evil way then the content would come your way, maybe…, but actually no. I remember the alliance leader and main FC of a major alliance I was in getting caught, and he just laughed at himself… and boy did we take the piss…, but he still was like meh, whatever…

The only way it would change is if they had to defend those assets that they used, but you missed something, I would also suggest that in effect they only need to compress their ore and move it, that means that the compression changes remove that possibility, so even changing ACL’s will only impact hisec groups and not get you want you wanted. The end result will be less hisec people doing stuff in hisec, and less people playing the game.

In effect the imbalance is already there in hisec, so it looks more and more likely to me that the war dec system is looking more and more likely to meet the same fate as the bounty system.

Funny enough compression in Orca’s may be the death of hisec war decs in the end. Because all the structures that produce and refine will be in nullsec supplied by compressed low value ore. I have to think this through a bit more, but I had already realised that my own indy was based on this premise, I have no need of hisec structures at all.

When you run a large nut(lol… NULL, Mac keeps auto correcting me) block (even the small null guys) coming to high for structures is hated. While people can be outnumbered easily by NULL blocks are they really going to send people to defend structure almost daily if I or somebody gets a bee in our bonnet to irritate them until they ignore it and loose it.

This has happened a few times now where they just give up because defending your space is more important in null. It is easy to steam roll in highsec, you cannot maintain that stance though unless you live there.

As a matter of fact frat did not even try to defend one of their members structures in highsec next to their lowsec staging location where they had large 2000 person fight an hour earlier.

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I always saw it as more that nullsec alliances would just sweep through for content, not in defence, as in getting back at the war deccers every so often, but their hisec structures are just not important apart from a certain Keepstar. They just don’t care enough, so yeah they will never defend their hisec structures. I agree.

Previously there was a value in having a structure to compress with the low level ores only being in hisec, but why even have that as they can just compress in an Orca and then jump it out to nullsec from NPC stations.

CCP will then have a choice lose the war dec system completely or open it up again.

Some really interesting points

Honestly I don’t see either of those happening. They do stuff like this all the time where they come out with “X” and it’s like they hadn’t thought through how it’s going to effect “Y”.

Look at the Highsec changes… that ONLY happened because they found that their data showed wars to be driving players away. They had to stop the bleeding… I wouldn’t count on them fixing an oversight that greatly impacts niche gameplay in a negative way.

I am of course ignoring one important thing here, which is a glaring omission on my part. Most of the content for hisec war deccers are passing nullsec targets, so I guess you will continue to have targets. I did a quick count of recent kills by Blackflag and that is what you get in the main. Nice Rhea kill by the way… So you are right they will likely never open it up again, and just leave it as is.

Still I am not sure how much real hisec indy is going to be left as things develop further. I did notice a lot less structures when I came back to Eve in hisec, which is what I was expecting.

Well as long as you have targets then all is good.

Before the structure nonsense, wars were fun. As an example, 2 alliances were hired to fight our little merc corp. We used hit and run tactics with intel from the locals to fight them. The CEO of one alliance gave me a command ship and withdrew his Alliance from the war after I blew up his ship. These were the good days.

Now , a bigger force will just smash your HQ, so war is just for the big boys now.

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I’m not an industrial guy by any means. I don’t have spreadsheets and stuff or really partake in that facet of gameplay (although I do see how setting up and managing a whole supply chain from “asteroid field to market” could be fun). I think there would always be industry and a need for infrastructure in Highsec, no?

I have been a lot of scouting… as in visiting every single system in a handful of regions so far. One thing I notice is in these nice little dead end pipes where there’s existing infrastructure you find upwards of 10 Orcas + many Exhumers out doing their thing. So I wouldn’t know but everyone says that Highsec mining isn’t worth doing but I bet if you pulled up the MER that you’d find The Forge, Lonetrek, and The Citadel holding their own in amount mined.

So seems like even though the activity isn’t being as min-maxed or profitable as it is in Nullsec, that there’s a huge number of players that don’t care. They want to do it and be setup in Highsec. I would guess that most structures killed in Highsec aren’t some Nullsec or Lowsec alt, but some budding industrialist that just does his thing in Highsec.

Not being rude but what you just said is what I was shouting back when CCP Burger gave that wardec presentation - when everyone grabbed their pitch forks. It’s true now and it was true then… the overwhelming majority of our targets are the result of blanket decs where we opportunistically camp the hubs and pipes. These targets absolutely overwhelmingly belong to a Nullsec group.

That’s why I never really subscribed to the thought that wars were driving players out of the game. I place more blame on poor leadership and communication.

The PowerPoint presentation pointed to 5 main culprits responsible for 90% of the carnage. If you go back and look at those groups then you’d find that every single one were blanket war dec’d group whose wars overwhelmingly consisted of Nullsec groups. Targets of opportunity. Not some focused campaign against industrialists in Highsec. Guess who the loudest whiners were? Nullsec.

Look at what happens when Nullsec comes to Highsec to fight. They hate it. Kane is 100% right in that between confusing mechanics and engagement rules, it’s just not their cup of tea. So it’s no surprise that Nullsec groups hate Highsec and wardecs. They can’t stand that they have to deal with them when and if they come to Highsec.

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Very true.

He most likely copied it from what you said :smiley:

Its what he tends to do.

I for one hope it goes back to the old system.

Can a war HQ or war eligible structure be in null or in a WH.

Somewhere very hard to get to so it means the structure is no longer the focus, maybe a big null block could host war hq or pos , for a fee.

Yes they can be. I was in a WH corp that was war deccd with only WH structures. The end result was that after a week the war was invalidated because obviously they had basically 0 targets. Not sure what the thought process was there.

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So that could be a way small groups could keep fighting without a big blob taking them out the war …

Maybe if us players find a way around this bad war system using what we have rather than hoping ccp change it .

No, that’s not how it works…

No, a WarHQ (the vehicle in which you declare war on another group as the aggressor) has to be in High Sec.

The other side is being “War Eligible” which is the status your corp / alliance turn to if they own structures in ANY area of space (that includes POCOs, POS, and Upwell Structures)

This is incorrect. Read above.

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