More like–those structures were not TRIGLAVIAN citadels. Merely kybernaut ones. Oh, and they were definitely ours. We hired Mr. Burnkill to manage logistics.
Was that supposed to be a “gotcha” of some kind? You’ll have to try harder, little girl. 
Thank you for the clarification, Gah’Matar. So it is just Lady Renaud’s misguided partner who sees Electus Matari as a friendly entity.
Or you could come over here and make a woman out of me, honey. It ain’t your boy-toy I’m after.
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While we do cooperate with EM in some domains. The agreements there extended to two situations: (1) Lux operations vis-a-vis Kybernauts; (2) Any situation where we operated with a mutual blue as part of a fleet. Such as cooperating with PNS (a blue) against Dock Workers (a red).
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Oh you sweet summer child. Don’t make me an offer like that unless you intend to make good on it. Haven’t you heard? Kybernauts are all about threes.
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Now you’re giving me something to consider, Miss Jackie!
Anyway, move’s done. Don’t nobody start making too much civil discussion in this thread while I’m gone!
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Indeed, that to me appears a legitimate concern, lord-consort Newelle. Even after taking into account the indirect nature of the support, one should consider the material gains made possible to Electus Matari by joint operations, gains can be used against Amarr in another theatre of war.
Do you see any way - short of stepping out of the cooperation altogether - that LUMEN could take to mitigate the effect?
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Alright, calm down you hornballs, we’re actually making some progress here for a change.
Thank you again for the further clarification; these terms were never made clear to the relevant parties in this dispute.
Now, there are some clear points that seems to be causing the primary tensions here:
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Phoenix Naval Systems as a LUMEN blue - We, House Newelle and the Atash e Sarum Vanguard, and the wider militia at large, recognize PNS as a hostile entity aligned with Electus Matari and against our interests in the warzone and highsec as demonstrated in Thebeka. We do not recognize LUMEN’s cooperation with them as legitimate, and it is only exacerbated by the addition Electus Matari in the mix. This will not change until assurances can be made that PNS will not act against Imperial interests again.
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Lux Invicta Coalition Mission Creep outside of anti-Triglavian activities - As my lady and I stated in our meeting with your diplomatic contingent, we were willing to look the other way on this cooperation so long as it stayed within bounds and our concerns were listened to and addressed. They were not, and from our standpoint it seems that the coalition you’ve built to combat Triglavians and those aligned with them is now extending beyond. We were already deeply uncomfortable with the cooperation in the first place due to a myriad of reasons, but having it now expand to pirates is a clear threat to both your autonomy as an Amarr loyalists group and our position in the warzone as they gain and protect resource gathering and production facilities in New Eden.
If you wish to re-open private negotiations on these points I am willing to help facilitate it, and advise Mikal Vector to de-escalate the current tensions. Unfortunately, things have degraded so severely by this point I am not certain a majority on your end would be willing.
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At the time of the recording, they’re showing certain Khimi Harar pilots as green, so any standings showing would be either individual or alliance/corp. I did notice they’re no longer an employee, but it certainly was an interesting thing to see nonetheless.
I have no doubt your standings are as red as they should be, of course.
It’s just interesting when there’s deviations in view.
Have you considered hiring these mercenaries? They seem like reasonable businessmen and women to me.
I have heard that a considerable sum had once been offered to act against Matari interests and it was refused.
They are not mercenaries if they show favoritism beyond payment. They are paid loyalists.
Saying that they are aligned with EM is very reductionist. I think it’s a bit of a blind spot of yours that you assume cooperation is subordination and that PNS looks to EM for direction. I’m my dealings with PNS, this was not the case. In fact when PNS came to Tanoo to assist LUMEN vs. Ushra’Khan, (something that I spoke to Local is Primary about first but dealing with CONCORD was too much of a pain for them,) I don’t believe they so much as gave a curtesy notice to EM.
If you’re referring to the recent action in Elarel? (A system that has no Amarrian claims might I add.) That was not a Lux operation. That was LUMEN showing up to help PNS and EM showing up to help PNS. Look, let’s not pretend we don’t know how low sec works. When you show up to help allies, not everyone that is on “your” side that day is friends.
There are a lot of battle reports where Local is Primary is on the same side as unsavoury and even minmatar groups. Just go look at the various “anti snuffed out” fleet of last winter where Local is Primary along with their sometime allies, sometime not “Rekking Crew,” Dock Workers, and Siege Green defended (or tried to) Minmil and pirate structures against Snuffed Out. I remember quite well a lot of closed doors discussion I was privy to in Local is Primary. So the recent hardline position is a little baffling sometimes.
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… nah, that just means they’re not unscrupulous mercenaries. A mercenary is simply an external/private military asset fighting for pay. Whether they allow their conscience to steer their client choices or not doesn’t really affect whether or not they’re mercs.
Have you tried offering good pay? 200b would sway a lot of mercenaries I assume.
Oh. Wait. Woops.
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By that logic, though, you should be equally open with finding fault in the Empress for permitting the inclusion of the Republic in EDENCOM, and with any Imperial loyalists that flew in defense of Republic systems against the Triglavians. After all, inevitably when the Republic Fleet deploys forces in defense of systems in the warzone, they’re using expertise partially developed in the fight against the Triglavian invasion, and material not they have available partially due to losses not suffered in the invasion… because of the Amarr / EDENCOM assistance.
Can’t really have it both ways there, Aldrith. Either the Empress was complicit in conserving the Republic Fleet’s manpower and materiel means of prosecuting campaigns in the warzone, or LUMEN wasn’t preserving EM’s fighting capacity in the warzone.
Did they say why it was refused? I mean, you’re saying ‘a considerable sum’, but you know, you guys thought the money you spent on Chakaid was a huge amount, too. Maybe someone else is paying them more than you offered.
It is good to see that there is at least some reciprocity in your relationship, but their past conduct is not something that can be ignored for us. It is not reductionist to recognize they cooperate with Electus Matari closely, surely have open lines of communication, and will aid one another’s aims at the expense of the Empire’s, making them a threat and an enemy. I have said before and now again that we are willing to reconsider this position if they make assurances and agreements to not do this in the future.
At least some of this will need to be addressed by Mikal Vektor himself, as I have repeatedly advised against any cooperation with outside partly hostile forces, both on principle and to keep the militia away from dependency upon said forces, thus driving and motivating our own growth. Our own forces must be ready and willing at all times to fight on disadvantaged ground, and only by doing so do we strengthen ourselves. This is undermined by calling others for support, especially if they will be hostile in the future. I believe Vektor agrees with this in principle, but in my honest opinion he bends it a bit to readily with entities I am loath to share a truce with, let alone a fleet.
From my observation, however, the fact that this was not a Lux operation makes it worse, as it seems indicative of a willingness to help PNS openly, with little or no compromise for your own interests, nor the interests of other Amarr-aligned capsuleers such as the militia, whom they operate against. PNS have aided LUMEN at least once in Tanoo. But how many times have you aided them? Either LUMEN should try to utilize PNS for Imperial aims more, or place more conditions on the dynamics that allow Electus Matari to get away with not being shot by you so much.
I do not seek to dictate how you conduct your relations, but the optics of this closeness is very poor coming from one who wishes to fight Electus Matari rather than see them gallivanting with the faithful. Anyway, perhaps we should leave the rest of this for a proper meeting, if you are willing. My lady and I found our last meeting somewhat frustrating, and downright infuriating later as one of the primary LUMEN negotiators seemed to completely disregard our words regarding a certain apostate. Perhaps you would be more straightforward and understanding of the matters involved.
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Months of messages, unproductive meetings where House Newelle makes demand after demand while offering nothing in return, public insults, not so veiled threats, and now increasingly hostile relations suggest otherwise.
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Per the CONCORD rules, we would need to declare a war to shoot EM in high sec space. As for shooting them in lowsec or nullsec space. We do when we run into them, something we don’t very often do.
You’ll notice our low sec focus has shifted quite a bit to the caldari-gallente area or operation, at least based on CONCORD sanctioned kill reports. I expect recent development will only push things further in that direction.
This is a reflection of diplomacy from a specific Amarr group making it clear that operation there is only to be done under full subordination to them (Lady Yassavi was most direct in this) and of our Caldari allies being much better at communicating objectives and coordinating.
However, such a dominant group as Local is Primary with such a distinguished combat records will have no problem retaining full control of the amarr-minmatar area of operation from the disorganized and ineffective tribal militia. Indeed, where I to look at a map of control right now, I would surely see every one of those systems with a golden imperial logo above, correct?
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Hate to say it, but this is correct. As someone who bled for a year over Flos right beside you, it pains me to see demands in bad faith. “Do as I say, not as I do” is what we get from LiP, and demands to follow that line from House Newelle in exchange for, what? Pleasant words of attempting some diplomacy to cool the rhetoric you’ve so happily contributed to, and done little to abate so far? Promises of vague leverage over an individual all too ready to throw you, personally Aldrith, under the bus at the first hint of insubordination over recovered Minmatar fighters?
Give me a break. I’m tired of a knife being stabbed into our back, and so soon, after going to bat for you so hard, and all the goodwill in the cluster we could give for hopes of your future success.
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All I hear are the mewling lies of a heretic, an apostate, and a traitor. You have strayed from the path of justice, and ye shall be cast into the fie’ry pit with your Matari friends. Whose structures we are currently purging with laser and fire.
For the record I cannot and do not speak for the Chapter with regards to diplomacy, so if leadership thinks a meeting is worthwhile then that is entirely acceptable. I just hope to speak as a, seemingly former, friend to a friend about my personal frustrations. What a tragedy this all is.
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