Expert Systems - Coming Soon!

[Arrendis]

@Photina_Aridia

All I can say about that is that there’s a sucker born every minute. CCP isn’t responsible for people’s stupidity, all they’re doing is making things available for players to try, it’s really up to the players to think for themselves.

No, CCP isn’t responsible for peoples’ stupidity, but they are the ones on the hook for when it comes to ‘does this game keep new players, or does it actively frustrate them? Is the word of mouth good, or bad?’

And there’s a huge difference between an informed choice to spend that money, and feeling like you’ve been taken advantage of. CCP’s already got a game with a reputation for being painfully complex and difficult for new players, and retention numbers that are a bit embarrassing. So while yes, we’re supposed to be adults, so is CCP. They’re supposed to be good at their jobs, and that means attracting and keeping customers. Right now, the scarcity measures have been pissing off older players for about 18 months. Those measures have also slowed down a nullsec war that is, quite frankly, the only reason CCP’s player counts have remained steady¹. This is not the time for CCP to go getting themselves more bad press for predatory microtransactions. Especially not when there are so many other ways they could literally have players screaming ‘SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY’.

For example:

1. Plastic models. The kind you glue together and paint yourself. Yes, the molds for the pieces cost money, but Tamiya could probably charge $75 a pop, or Revell could do $50 each, easy. They’d recoup that pretty quick. There’s a lot of nerds who love building and painting models.
2. Ancillary games. I don’t mean EVE Echoes or anything like that. I mean talking to Games Workshop, or even better, Fantasy Flight Games, the guys who make the Star Wars miniatures combat games. Tabletop EVE fleet battles. They don’t even have to keep the ship stats up-to-date, though FFG could totally make even more money by periodically releasing stat changes to keep up with the EVE balance passes.
3. Sit the art department down and get them to bring the old ship models up to spec for the modern rendering system, then… sell the old ship models, like they’re SKINs. So you can pick which model you use for each ship. Only, you know, let people use SKINs on them, too. Imagine it. There’s a fleet of Typhoon-class battleships… only, they use all three models for the 'phoon². Older players would throw money at CCP just for the nostalgia value.

CCP’s art department is incredibly talented. I have no doubt they could do it.

And that’s just 3 off the top of my head. They don’t need to do this in a way that makes it a naked cash grab. They did that with the Rorqual changes, and were crass enough to admit it, and it pissed players off. They did it with the Hypercore Relay, when Hilmar actually went on-stage and claimed CCP had invented a new trading paradigm that could be used in the real world, too… and it turned out to be raffles, of all things. And that episode pissed players off, too.

They really need to stop flailing about with crass, transparent cash grabs that just piss players off, and try putting stuff into the game that’s good, and useful, and giving us other ways to throw money at them that don’t piss people off.

And like I said: this is a good idea in concept. If they made it so you got a pre-fitted ship that also went away when the skills did, that’d address like 90% of the ‘blood from a stone’ problem. It might still blow up, and if it does, well, sucks to be you, but that would also let new players see how different kinds of ships are typically fitted, and how those fits work in practice.

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^{1. Btw, another handy website for you: eve-offline. Chribba (who is basically the most trusted guy in the game) set it up to track user counts a long time ago.}

^{2. Current Typhoon:}

^{Old Typhoon:}

^{Original Typhoon:}

[Culsotu2]

Why dont they just remove the whole skill system, so all people can use all ship/modules etc.
In the begining of Eve Online there was a “impress” factor when u see somone in a fancy top class ship.
Thats totally gone these days.

[Photina_Aridia]

Thank you for your reply, Arrendis. I agree that CCP could make money in various other ways and please most of the players at the same time and that the ES idea could’ve been implemented differently. I agree with most of what you wrote. Like this one:

@Arrendis

If they made it so you got a pre-fitted ship that also went away when the skills did, that’d address like 90% of the 'blood from a stone’ problem.

And not because there’s a free ship but for the different kinds of fits on the different kinds of ships.

@Arrendis

does this game keep new players, or does it actively frustrate them?

Now I haven’t played for long but just reading the forum I can see how frustrated people get about the game and it’s not entirely CCP’s fault simply because players have a lot of freedom in the game and, just like in real life, sometimes someone will do something to frustrate another. The PvP part of the game pretty much ensures that player A will be happy while player B will be frustrated and that’s all PvP is really, winning over another player while that player dries his tears and tries again.

@Arrendis

And there’s a huge difference between an informed choice to spend that money, and feeling like you’ve been taken advantage of.

Sure, but I don’t think CCP is consciously out to take advantage of players. I rather think that so many people want instant gratification so much that they rush for their wallet before having thought matters through. I think about car sales for example. Too many people just want the shiny stuff and they don’t care if it’s going to break the bank as long as the neighbor is jealous ( never mind that the wife is pissed off ) or that brand new built house that sits empty a few years later because the household lost an income that wasn’t foreseen to be shaky in the first place. If there’s something I’ve learned over the years is this: Gain fast, spend slow.

@Arrendis

They’re supposed to be good at their jobs, and that means attracting and keeping customers.

EVE has been around for nearly 20 years. Was there ever a time when Player Retention looked great?

@Arrendis

Right now, the scarcity measures have been pissing off older players for about 18 months.

I did read a few threads about that when it happened. I was under the impression that most forum members agreed that it was good for EVE’s “ecosystem” ( whatever that means ) and those who threatened to quit were greeted with the usual “Can I have your stuff” and most everyone had a good laugh about it.

@Arrendis

Those measures have also slowed down a nullsec war that is, quite frankly, the only reason CCP’s player counts have remained steady

Isn’t that debatable though? I mean, a lot of null-sec corps have activities and allies in hi-sec, why wouldn’t they be capable of getting hisec ore?

@Arrendis

This is not the time for CCP to go getting themselves more bad press for predatory microtransactions. Especially not when there are so many other ways they could literally have players screaming ‘SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY’

I wouldn’t call ES “microtransaction” but ok.

@Arrendis

Especially not when there are so many other ways they could literally have players screaming ‘SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY’.

Yes, I agree with that and your number points as well. There’s SO many other ways to get people to spend their money on a game.

@Arrendis

They did it with the Hypercore Relay, when Hilmar actually went on-stage and claimed CCP had invented a new trading paradigm

Now I’ve looked at that Hypercore Relay. I’ll never use it.

@Arrendis

try putting stuff into the game that’s good, and useful, and giving us other ways to throw money at them that don’t piss people off.

I agree with that. I can see a bunch of different ways myself and I’m a noob.

I guess, well, it’s still this: When money talks, BS walks. They have Pearl Abyss breathing down their neck now. Good luck to get anything that will please most players as long as money is the bottom line.

I like the current Pythoon better though.

PS: Why did CCP have to sell to Pearl Abyss? What was the rationale behind that decision? Anyone know?

[Arrendis]

@Photina_Aridia

Sure, but I don’t think CCP is consciously out to take advantage of players.

Don’t worry, once there are EVE meetups and events again like FanFest and EVEsterdam, you’ll be able to get it right from them.

@Photina_Aridia

EVE has been around for nearly 20 years. Was there ever a time when Player Retention looked great?

About the first 7 years it existed, yeah.

@Photina_Aridia

I did read a few threads about that when it happened. I was under the impression that most forum members agreed that it was good for EVE’s “ecosystem” ( whatever that means ) and those who threatened to quit were greeted with the usual “Can I have your stuff” and most everyone had a good laugh about it.

The ecosystem overhaul is good for the game. But the way they’re going about it is needlessly obtuse, and pissing people off. They’ve been promising there’d be ‘carrots’ to offset the sticks that’ve been hitting regularly since summer of 2019. But they’ve been making those promises about ‘the next update’ since September. They insist they have a plan, and it’s very detailed, but they can’t tell us what it is, because if they told us what the plan was, we’d know the plan, and then they’d have to scrap it and make a new plan.

Literally, the EVE brand manager went on a stream and said that. That was the same stream where he and the ecosystem guy told players ‘go ahead, quit. You’ll be back’. Which is, you know, a great message from the brand manager.

@Photina_Aridia

Isn’t that debatable though? I mean, a lot of null-sec corps have activities and allies in hi-sec, why wouldn’t they be capable of getting hisec ore?

It is absolutely possible to get highsec ore. Highsec ore is not the only thing that’s needed for production. But more importantly, as prices go up in ISK (as they have, especially for T2 hulls), the willingness to lose those things goes down. As the ability to build things like titans and supercapitals shrinks, the willingness to risk them does, with it. This war saw the single bloodiest day in EVE’s history not because of the scarcity, but despite it, because the situation more or less forced the escalation. But that’s a once-in-a-conflict kind of miscalculation that got made there, and I don’t expect to see another titan brawl like that unless the attackers horribly screw up.

@Photina_Aridia

I wouldn’t call ES “microtransaction” but ok.

If it’s under $14.99, it’s absolutely a microtransaction. Even if it’s not, it’s part of the microtransaction model of game development, just like PLEX sales are.

@Photina_Aridia

Now I’ve looked at that Hypercore Relay. I’ll never use it.

That’s where most folks are (though of course, when it first went in and everyone got a bunch of free Hypercores, everyone was using it, buyers trying to win sweet deals, sellers raffling crap off for price pools that let them replace it and still show a comfortable profit. Then they basically stopped.

@Photina_Aridia

I guess, well, it’s still this: When money talks, BS walks. They have Pearl Abyss breathing down their neck now. Good luck to get anything that will please most players as long as money is the bottom line.

Honestly, PA’s a game developer. They’re not idiots. They know the long-term health of the game is a better, more reliable money-maker than small cash-grabs that make players want to stop paying entirely.

@Photina_Aridia

PS: Why did CCP have to sell to Pearl Abyss? What was the rationale behind that decision? Anyone know?

So, many years ago, CCP got bought by a bunch of venture capitalists, led by an extremely rich Icelandic banker. And it got bought then because it was a small game studio, and they provided the money the company needed to become stable and able to weather fluctuations in customer loyalty.

And for many years, those venture capitalists saw CCP as a reliable, long-term moneymaking asset that gave them a return on their investment while still appreciating in value. But about 5 years ago, they decided they wanted to get out of the video game industry. So they started doing the things you do when you want to sell a company: they gutted it.

(CCP doesn’t like it when people say things like that, but they did.)

CCP’s staffing numbers were slashed. Multiple side studios they had working on game ideas were shuttered or sold off. CCP Newcastle was sold off, CCP Atlanta fired almost everyone, and the one guy who escaped with a job got exiled to a godforsaken lump of volcanic rock in the middle of the North Atlantic (ie: Iceland). White Wolf Game Studio, which CCP had acquired in 2006 or so and which had formed the kernal of CCP Atlanta, and all of the White Wolf IPs (Pen & paper RPGs, mostly, like the World of Darkness, but also some attached major video game titles, like Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines) got sold off to Paradox.

That last one, btw? A damned good thing. During the VC era at CCP, they owned White Wolf, VtM, the World of Darkness, etc, for nearly a decade and did nothing with it¹. People had been clamoring for Bloodlines II (Bloodlines, the original, having been put out before WW and CCP ‘merged’ Heh. ‘Merged’. What a crock.) Paradox spun WW off into its own company again, and while Bloodlines 2 has run into some unexpected insanity, Werewolf: the Apocalypse—Earthborn came out this past month for PC and I think consoles, and the PnP properties have been enjoying renewed development focus as well.

So the VCs spent years hollowing out CCP so it’d look as attractive as possible on the balance sheets. And then they went looking for a buyer. They did the sale in 2018, hyped up the ‘$425 million!’ price tag (even though PA only paid about $225 up front, with the rest attached to performance targets that CCP did not meet, we now know), and EVE Online and CCP are now owned by people who… get this… want to be making computer games, instead of people who want to own real estate, but some ugly financial market crashes convinced them to stuff their VC money into a ‘safe’ bet for a while.

For all you see people blaming PA for basically everything on the forums, PA’s been pretty massively hands-off with CCP. It wouldn’t make sense for them to interfere: there are performance-based bonuses involved, and you can’t get an accurate assessment of how well the new property (ie: CCP) works if you don’t let them do their thing for a while. Now that they’re publicly willing to say that they missed their performance targets, that may change… but honestly, I kinda thing that might be a good thing to happen.

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^{1. CCP did try to put out a World of Darkness MMO, early on. That’s the basis for the Carbon™ Engine that’s currently been relegated to when you look at the full-body image of someone’s character, or when you go to update your avatar. It’s pretty dated now, but it went live for the Incarna expansion in 2011. It was developed initially for the World of Darkness MMO, but because they were working on that MMO with CCP Atlanta, the wise men of Reykjavik decided ‘we can add more traditional MMO stuff to EVE, too! We’ll call it Walking in Stations!’}

^{And so they committed to letting you get out of your ship and walk around. There was talk of missions and other PvE in the stations, of casinos and hunting other players outside the pod, and on and on. Buuuuut… because they’d committed to doing it for one of their (then) twice-yearly expansions in their flagship (coughONLYcough) game, they had to deliver. So, bit by bit, assets and developers working on WoD got re-tasked to working on WiS for EVE… except it wasn’t ready, and it wasn’t going to be ready, because CCP’s management team had hamstrung the early development in WoD by completely changing the targets every month or two.}

^{Eventually, a half-assed version went live in EVE, on-schedule, with a single room you could hang around in, alone, the Captain’s Quarters. The WoD MMO got cancelled because CCP kept changing their direction and not having the first clue WTF, and Atlanta started getting downsized and moved off to support roles, as talent got sent to Shanghai, Iceland, London, Newcastle, etc.}

[Photina_Aridia]

I appreciate your insight on all those things. Thank you for educating me on all that stuff and for the links and… But most of all, thank you for your patience. You’re great. I have to cut it off here unfortunately and I’m sure you have other things to do.
I will reread everything and get an even better mental picture of the whole thing. I do hope things get better with EVE because it would certainly be a hell of a shame for such a great game to end up the subject of an article entitled “How the longest-running game in the history of online gaming lost its way into a black hole”
Take care <3

[Arrendis]

@Photina_Aridia

the longest-running game in the history of online gaming

Not for nothing, but EverQuest’s been running since March 16, 1999. Anyway, have a good night

[Photina_Aridia]

@Arrendis

but EverQuest’s been running since March 16, 1999

I forgot about that one, lol. I downloaded it and never got into it.

[Lis_Torin]

@Arrendis

been running since March 16, 1999

Tibia is from January 1997 and it’s probably not oldest running mmo

[Arrendis]

and then there’s MU*s, including a couple of Dikus and lpMUDs that’ve been up since the early 90s.

[Vintus_Turgalium]

@Miranda_Farron

How does that not look exactly like a P2W micro-transaction riddled EA game?

I agree. We need shiny new COSMETICS. We need to have true microtransactions that give us something of worth that does not affect gameplay, rather than all of these recolors, and reskins of the same cosmetics for ships and player characters. THAT is where money is, shiny cool looks. I could be wrong, but it has worked for League of Legends (among other games), a game I have played for quite a few years now and still play casually every season.

This new system will detract new players, in my book. If I first started playing this game while “Expert Systems” was out, I would see an advertisement for purchasing my time or otherwise spend that time waiting, and for quite a LONG time too (because it shows wait times in weeks/months when you hover over the options for purchase - a huge turnoff). It also comes across as a P2W cash-grab scheme.

One of the biggest issues I had with the game was just that…time spent waiting for skills. I reached a point where I had to start waiting weeks, and I was like…WTF??? I did not realize this game was really about taking your time, settling in and making something of yourself through time and experience and that the skills developing over the course of time will allow you to put them to use wisely and affordably. I fear with this new system you will merely be placing that “WTF” moment right smack dab in front of the new player and with a price tag attached for a convenient yet temporary escape… I cannot see how that ends well.

This comes from a player who has only played for all of 5 minutes in 2017, and about a few months in 2020, and just came back again this month. I am the new player you are trying to keep. This system does not keep me, it does the opposite - I wish to gain ancestry options back in character select, and do away with this silly system. I want a cool long jacket to wear, and maybe some new glasses, more Amarr cosmetics and a shiny new coat of paint on my Coercer. Not some temporary buy to try skills.

[Fale_Einn]

@Stevie_Knix

IMO, the game was not broken in the skill training department before and doesn’t require this “fix”.

As much as I hate my skill queue, much like a drug addict hates their dealer and the problems of keeping their habits filled, I have to agree with you.
I find that as my skills progress to what ever goal I’m after, for example being able to fly solo in an Emerging Conduit, my actual piloting skill improves proportionally to a large extent.
I have also found that by jumping ahead in a sense by training for ships (in my case a Loki) that I am not ready for I wind up with a very fragile egg shell of a ship that I don’t understand. For me this has resulted in having a Sunesis that is vastly more useful to me than my Loki.
Being able to skip ahead, especially as a new player, it not a great idea in my opinion, and will lead to some serious disappointment, unnecessary destruction, and more than likely the loss of even more new players. If you can fly something it doesn’t mean you should fly it, you can, but your chances of losing it are vastly higher if you do.
I can fly a Loki, at best, for tech III stuff I should be sticking with a Svipul at the highest, but even those are hard for me to fit properly, I’m simply not that good a pilot yet and my skills in other stuff like CPU and powergrid are not yet where they should be.
I need, even after over a year and a half I think to gain more experience, not jumpstart my skill queue, and I certainly wouldn’t have needed to when I was very new.

[Vintus_Turgalium]

Precisely, even if this system appeals to new players it will eventually work towards their detriment.

[chez1962]

This how CCP thinks!!

[Tobiant_Ormand]

RealmsMUD.org!!! Shameless plug for a game I used to program for. Feel free to ignore me

[TeamGreen]

When will you finally stop with this path…
I am utterly disappointed by the people who want to introduce this system into the game.
Stop it please, I am dead serious about it.

[Clary_Daemon]

What about wh’s needs to be fixed

[Arrendis]

they’re so… wormy.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

Wormy Game - Home | Facebook

[Ted_Buckland]

Well, it does not seem like the worst idea ccp had in the recent past … although i wont hold my breath for it to do anything measurable to new player retention.

IMO it just won’t, because it already sounds too convoluted of a concept. Giving skills to people to take them away again … yeah, this is so going to work to keep players …

That is not saying it actually just is a brain fart of some nerd … it just smells like walking too close to one of them.

So, the whole idea just feels quite underwhelming for me, but i would be happy to be proven wrong.

I just hope you did not put in too much effort to do it (with QA you sure did not since you are ccp, unable to provide any decent QA anyway). i would just debate wether resources would be put to better use by fixing the vast amount of annoying bugs instead of introducing another half baked feature with foreseeable effects (which is next to none for me) to new player retention.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Agree 100%, especially with the part about fixing the multitude of bugs currently present in the game before implementing any more half-ass ideas.