FAO CSM; Local and Intel tools

Dear CSM,

I would like to bring your attention to a problem that has existed since time began. It prevents PVP, it reduces risk/reward, it detracts from gameplay and experience and it turns what should be an exciting experience into nothing but a chore and routine.

Shall we talk about the L word? No, not lesbians my horny neckbeards, the dirty dirty intel tool called LOCAL. We all know it’s a problem, the elephant in the room, the sword of Damocles - but no one is willing, wanting or able to face it.

We’ll cut to the chase - LOCAL will never go. The CSM and the null blocs will never agree to this. I’m not going to say it’s an intel tool (it’s an intel tool) but it does have it’s problems.

When hunting/roaming/flying in null, as a small gang, looking to attack groups who are soft targets (piracy, right?) there’s a problem - before we’ve even jumped into the next system and completed the loading animation, we’re already in local. The ratter/miner, who most certainly isn’t doing anything to gain an advantage, and is almost always certainly smashing DSCAN and looking at LOCAL, can see us before we’ve even loaded. They’re already in warp back to the station to dock up - by the time we’ve used DSCAN to see where they are, and warp to them, all that’s left is wrecks.

This is not how small gang PVP should be. This is not what was ever intended. There’s literally no risk. LOCAL was created from a time of innocence in 2003 whereby the devs thought it would be nice if people could talk to one another. It was never meant to be an intel tool or early warning system.

When a neutral enters system, the ratters/miners dock up - literally whilst they’re loading system. Is that good game design? Is that the intention? No.

What’s the solution? If the CSM/Null won’t agree, the devs won’t force it, what can be done? There is a solution that works for all and actually balances the game in a more realistic and opportune way so that everyone can have a slice of cake.

SOLUTION - Whilst your gate cloak is active, you don’t appear in LOCAL. When your gate cloak drops, you’re in LOCAL. Why? It gives roamers some time to DSCAN or “shotgun” a random target. It still gives null their intel tool. I’d like to think this is an 80/20 deal… still in favour of null, but it’s a reasonable request.

TLDR; You don’t appear in LOCAL until your gate cloak has dropped.

I literally challange anyone to debate me (fight me) as to why this would be a negative to the game overall. I’m not talking about a nullcentric focus, but an overall game focus. Null have a lot of benefits and very little risk (pretty sure it was supposed to be the opposite) and this needs adjusting slightly. You’re all super rich right? What do a few ratting Ishtars/Praxis mean in the grand scale of things, content and overall health of the game - or do you want to hunker down and enjoy your ivory tower whilst the ground collapses beneath you?

Again, TLDR; You don’t appear in LOCAL until your gate cloak has dropped.

If anyone can actually provide a balance, reasonable and valid explantion as to why this is NOT a good idea, then go for it. Explain why the most dangerous area of space…. isn’t actually any more dangerous than high sec. If anyone thinks that more content/engagement is actually bad, speak up!

TLDR; You don’t appear in LOCAL until your gate cloak has dropped.

Edit - fully expecting to get dogpiled by null and people with vested interests. Propose an alternative rather than just flaming me.

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I play in wormholes, so I have no interest in Local.

Why do you get free intel on who is in the system and they don’t get the same intel you have entered the system?

An interceptor is in warp almost as soon as its gate cloak drops, and if the site is within dscan range of a gate or wormhole, a miner’s total time to respond before you land on grid is less than their align time. As it currently sits, if your site is within dscan of a gate, you can have a scout watching them land on the entry gate from the next system, and the Orca will watch the interceptor land on grid as it warps away.

Have you tried wormholes? seems to fix all your issues….

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Free intel? Are you on crack? Have you tried wormholes? This is literally an early warning system and it needs to go.

It doesn’t matter if a ‘ceptor can instawarp to…. “somewhere” (how do you expect them to get a position or bearing?)… because as soon as a neut enters, they warp and dock up.

Poor try, 1/10, try again.

Oh yes, I have actually. I live in one. There’s no one there. Null is good for hunting - or it would be, if people didn’t dock up as soon as local loaded.

0/10, really bad, don’t even bother. Standard nullbear response

its not like it hasnt been tried…but you might be too new to have been there…lol

How do you know that no one is there if you don’t see the local chat user list?

Then you are doing something wrong, as lots of people die in Null Sec every moment. This is a You issue, not a Local Chat issue.

0/10, really bad, don’t even bother. Standard bad PVP-crybaby argument.

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I’m not new, I’m really really old…. This was too much of a push for the nullbears, there needs to be (as per my suggestion) a method that works for everyone. (In reality, my solution sucks and local needs to go, but I’d settle for a cloak delay).

Again, argue with me and prove why it’s bad.

Roaming multiple systems, finding them virtually empty.

In “set piece” battles… not small, unexpected engagements. You’re literally playing Risk with pieces right now. Speaking of risk, you’re averse to it.

Oh sorry, don’t you like PVP in null?

Should we ban alt in adjacent systems too then? cause there is far better ways to actually get intel if your doing it right…?

Stop deflecting - you know this is stupid. Actually go back and re-focus on what I’m saying instead of spouting nonsense.

How do you know they are empty? You do not see the local chat user list.

None of these things above are “set piece battles”. They are proof that you are doing it wrong and that you are risk-averse.

I like it, I engage in it nearly daily, I know how to use local to my advantage. You don’t seem to be able to, which is quite striking for someone who claims to be “old”.

Still waiting for a valid, constructive counter and argument to my proposal as opposed to knee jerk fear reactions from ratters….

It’s called DSCAN.

Also, stop deflecting to wormholes. We’re talking about LOCAL and how it affects NULL - and how everyone docks up when you enter.

The reason, the kills you linked, even exist, is because there is no LOCAL - thank you for proving my point.

You know that there are ships that can use a cloak? And ships that are dscan immune? You still don’t know if the system is empty just because Dscan is empty.

The above links of kills of ratters and bait ratters and small ambushes proves your “everyone docks when you enter” wrong.

Stop pushing bad changes for everyone onto other players just because you cannot play the game properly.

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“Propose an alternative rather than just flaming me.”

Leave it as is. its working as intended. get better or do something else.

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I’m aware, thanks. It’s a minor issue and null can deal with it, with all their power… these ships are not of any consequence.

Explain and justify how this is bad, and how this is not proper game play? It sounds like you’re just an insecure nullbear ratter worried about losing your AFK ISK generation. Amirite?

Get better at what? Instantly DSCANNING 20 sigs for a direction? When they’re already in warp before you load? This is a game problem, alwyas has been.gif

It’s a clutch for bad PVPers as good PVPers do not need it to find targets. Bad PVPers should not be supported, just like bad ratters (aforementioned AFK ratters) should not be supported by clutches.
Local as it is gives everyone a level playing field.

You expect people to argue with you in a civilized manner but you do not stop name-calling everyone who points out your argument-relevant flaws and shortcomings. Much to your disappointment, however, I rat in contested space, I have trained the locals to leave me alone, and I only rat aspects where even your clutch is not enough so that someone as PVP-inept like you can catch me. :slight_smile:

I completely agree.

Local is an intel tool and is used as intel tool.

CCP tried blackout so we know what happens if null sec gameplay has no insight in the amount of people in system with local at all, so I won’t suggest nor support removal of local from null sec entirely.

However local chat is still too strong as intel tool.

Delaying local until gate cloak is broken is a good compromise.

A compromise that keeps local chat functional for null sec to follow where players go so people cannot hide a fleet of 200 in a safe, but also adds a tiny bit of uncertainty with a limited delay that allows players to load a system without already broadcasting their arrival in advance.

And not just null, if this works I don’t see why it should be limited to NS: why not also add it to LS and HS?

My only issue with it is a mechanical one: local chat currently is tied to the ‘instance’ you are in, and based om the instance you load you get access to another chat channel. This would need to be rewritten for the first time for players to join a chat based on their state within an instance (gatecloak or not). I hope CCP is capable enough to do so reliably.

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