For Folks who are 'Leaving'

Happened to notice this in your longer post.

Maybe some gank victims put up a post like this just to see if they really are alone, or if someone else has been through what they’ve been through and can help them see the light at the end of the tunnel.

There isn’t one, by the way. Eve is a bleak dystopia. In some ways you need to play Eve to get a break from the real world. In other ways, you need the real world to get a break from playing Eve.

(Sometimes I am actually happy to go back to my job, where I can “make isk” all day and nobody will gank me.)

But some times real life gets boring, and Eve, even at its most depressing, usually isn’t boring if you try to find things to do.

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I won’t really argue (as in calmly put forth my reasons to defend my position) against your point, but I think of Eve as a warm place. Like a home where I grew up. There are a lot of reasons that had to build up before I reached the point where I felt like it was time to move on and probably only about half of them are anything CCP could reasonably do anything about. My life now is very different from my life 16 years ago and that’s not CCP’s fault. Also like a former home, I still care about Eve, even if I don’t think I can live there anymore.

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When you work for something and that something is taken away it hurts and it takes a lot to work through that. Especially when you are new when even a few isk is hard work.
I remember when I lost my first and only battleship I still cringe at the thought.

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Millions? Are you sure about that?

Yes, the losses hurt in a meaningful way that is absent other video games. That is because assets and ISK in EVE are more meaningful than in other video games.

There are gamers that do not want that kind of level of responsibility, care, and duty in their games. It could be for a myriad of reasons: maybe they want the game to cater to a specific play style they want to impose upon it, maybe they want an endless-progression treadmill that only goes forward and never backwards, maybe they do not want to put in the effort they feel is required to reach that level of responsibility, or one of numerous other reasons. To an individual gamer who discovers they have an inner limitation along these lines, it is a novel thing they’ve discovered about themselves and hence the motivation to share it in a personal “Look at me, quitting Eve” forum post.

To those of us sticking around, patiently reading, this one individual is just one of many, so of course it no longer seems personal as it just gives off a “wow, a gamer gives a negative review of a game, news at 11” vibe.

Since to the individual it is personal but for everyone else it is not, that is where I see a lot of the callousness reputation of the EVE online community come through: there’s an opportunity for personal growth that most players have had to do on their own and figure out for themselves, and it’s usually expressed in the “HTFU” mantra back to the individual thinking of quitting – which is usually not well received in the emotional moment.

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The surprise effect is certainly part of it, and probably related to gamer age. If you have played games in the 80/90s, you know what it means to lose everything to the end boss and have to start over again and again. :wink: But it’s usually the missing reflection and blaming others or the game (without admitting any own f*up), which doesn’t resonate well with the people who passed the “great filter”.

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Not so fast…

Losing something due to anyday actions WITHIN a controlled environment supposes a mistake or inconvenient action or lack thereof in maintaining the standards which the environment in mention demands.
That, no one ever complains of.

But…
When the environmental conditions of a “closed” system are altered by external factors and the result is an inconvenient outcome for any component, YOU WILL HEAR FROM IT!

Again… the reason why a CSM rep asks about this, escapes my imagination.
Many posters note the recurrent, predictable to the dot… cycle of similar complains when “leaving” is part of an OP… and they are right! it’s a perfectly predictable clockwork. But it keeps going on over and over again… Why Mr. CSM?

Because someone or some group or gamestyle (whatever) is affected in a different way by EXTERNAL factors, decisions made and actions taken which effect is unbalanced no matter the disparity of the original environment… It is the change of rules that brings the actions many freely call crybabies.

I have no idea why this question is asked… but I have a hint: It is because it’s not only the trolls pointing at “crybabies” filling the forums. No one cares about that.

It is NUMBERS! I think. It is because there is a lack of influx of TRUE new players. It is because it is more lucrative to create pro egglaying geese chars disguised as noobs. It is because some noob is really a pro hustler in game and the door is wide open because…*

( Now, someone could ask: How can the true new player influx be affected by what’s in the forums??
Because they are checking it out BEFORE jumping in and if they see that the dominating topics refer to anything they see fraudulent, they move to whatever seems less unstable.)

*The changes and ultimate goal forgot the traditional and went for the “get them in no matter what” model. Instead of… make anyone welcome but keep something called “player base”.
A character becomes ‘player base’ when what’s done in game is enough for him to complain the moment you f**k his way. No one unless troll… complains in a forum after playing for a few days.
The tantrum, the voicing and the leaving posts are in it’s majority… guess who?

The PLAYER BASE that deserved be taken care of. For whatever reason!

Name 3 things EVE has presented that you could truly state are in absolute favor of those players.
Of course there are some but it’s what I call COSMETICS and they usually come in consonance with a F**kd up bad decision, not as a true initiative to maintain the original landscape.

It’s no longer that way. Yes, you have numbers but not THOSE numbers. there is barely any truly new players coming to EVE. I’m not saying anything about quantity… I’m just pointing at the fact that it’s not enough.

I might be wrong but if this is not the reason, then why bother asking about the way peeps walk out the door shouting such blasphemies when what they say is nothing you care about?

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Some people don’t enjoy challenging games.

That’s fine. They have plenty of other games to play. CCP should focus on their niche, and avoid falling into the trap of trying to please everyone.

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Kinda cool being called ‘Mr. CSM’

Now this is partially a question I am not posing and partially a hijack of the thread . . . I am not asking why they quit, I even said that we know the usual suspects for this. What I am asking is why they make such a HUGE dram of the thing. If they are actually leaving then what point is there in such a dramatic burning of bridges, hair pulling and sobbing on the floor vowing never to return.

I know. That was a point brought up in another part of this wee thread. What is it that Eve promises but does not deliver? Why do so many lambs seem surprised at what is in for them when the farmer comes?

See, this is where I come in. I am heavily involved with new players on a day to day basis. What needs to change? Should we make Eve safer? Have designated no pvp zones? {personally? I am very against this} Should marketing change how they sell Eve so folks know what they are getting into? Should we put more into the NPE that prepares the players for what is to come, teach them that ships are expendables and so are lives.

Do we change the game or the players?

Or do we accept this as part of the process, a winnowing separating the wheat from the chaff.

Well that is one vote for keep the game as is . . .

m

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From my perspective, “leaving” threads are very often an attempt at emotional satisfaction. I saw it all the time in my years in customer service; people would give us an earful before swearing us off completely so they could feel better about themselves.

Some leaving threads occasionally have valid points, often buried under a great deal of frustration, but even truth gets ignored if it’s delivered with the grace of a jackhammer. Mostly, though, leaving threads seem to be a measure like those angry “To Whom It Damn Well Better Concern” letters you might send so you can tell everyone you gave “Whom” what for, by golly.

No one individual in a company will care that you’ve had X issue for Y time and had to deal with an avalanche of excrement in the process. They don’t care about that, because it doesn’t help them to help you, nor does it excuse childish behavior on your part.

What will get you help is if you communicate your concerns respectfully, concisely, and clearly. That doesn’t mean you’ll get what you want, but there’s a better chance you will. I do think there’s ways CCP could improve their customer service, but I can see why they’d ignore 99.9% of the “leaving” threads.

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That’s a fair point, Mistakes are fine if you learn from them.

I disagree with your disagreement because that little difference in security rating means that the things that work in highsec do not work in lowsec, and vice versa.

I used to have that with frigates and destroyers when I was a newbro. It takes a bit of practice to get used to exploding. It must be rougher when your first losses include battleships.

That’d explain why people report me for the unfair practice of orbiting them instead of brawling with approach.

There was a guy recently who posted on the FB group I moderate
Apparently he’s leaving because even though he’s been playing since EVE started (cannot confirm if true), he’s angry about the changes over the last few years and apparently CCP forces “bad game design” onto EVE which makes it “unfair”

You may be wondering what EXACTLY the “bad game design” he’s talking about…
Apparently he believes that invading someone elses mission, or site they scanned down, or even those drone sites at the moment, and then the invader getting the highest damage on the rat that drops the loot, is apparently “unfair” to him, and he calls it “stealing”
He says that there are no punishments for people who “steal” his sites
But he absolutely doesn’t understand EVE as a game, and even when I tried to explain it to him, it still just wouldn’t sink in (hence why I have doubts of him playing the game since its inception)

If someone stole from HIS kill (IE – the wreck of the ship he destroyed was yellow), then the guy would go suspect, and he could engage if he chose to (that’s the punishment for the thief)
But killing, and/or getting the higher damage on an NPC rat, and then that kill now belonging to another player IS NOT STEALING… it’s simply competition in the game

In all honesty
As a gamer, I grew up with the SEGA Megadrive and the SNES
For those who don’t know, there was no way to save your game.
As soon as you turn off the console, regardless of anything, you lost all your progress in the game… 100% of the time
Today’s younger gamers on the other hand have it easy
Save points all the time, reset buttons if they die
Even in one of my favourite more modern games – DOOM Eternal, you can theoretically die an infinite number of times (unless you’re on a certain difficulty), and you will just reset back to a previous checkpoint, and you can try again

I believe that because of the last 20-25 years of how the gaming industry has changed, younger players (who are now in their early to mid 20’s) who DID NOT grow up with the Megadrive or SNES, but maybe the PS1 and onwards (which had memory cards for saved games etc), they are not as robust as us older gamers who’re far more accepting of absolute defeat.
These newer gamers want “a safe space” when they play EVE, which is PERHAPS why CCP made Abyssals, where it’s pretty much a players own pocket, where they won’t be interrupted by other players during the PVE combat within the Abyssals.
Don’t misunderstand me, I have nothing against abyssal content, as you can still be ambushed when exiting the abyssal pocket which is excellent… but many many new players I’ve met who are between the ages of 15-25 seem to be angry when another player in an MMO interupts whatever gameplay they’re doing, be that sites, missions, exploration, mining… whatever
And to them… that’s “bad game design”

The problem is, these people have likely never considered BEING the guy who becomes the DISRUPTOR of other peoples gameplay for their own benefit, because they’re programmed to only think linearly and not dynamically like the majority of the EVE playerbase

To conclude
As a player who grew up playing videogames in the mid and late 90’s, I continue to play EVE, BECAUSE my gameplay and operations continue to get disrupted by players who want to cause problems for me
THAT CHALLENGE ALONE IS WHAT MAKES EVE GREAT, and all the players who cannot hack it are the ones who are leaving because they cannot adapt to the changing environment which is – EVE Online

So there we have it
I wonder if anyone here agrees or disagrees with my assessment and belief of why some players quit and some players don’t, even when times get tough for them.
I would be very interested to hear what others have to say
As the old saying goes… When the goings get tough, the tough get going

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Yah, I don’t really have any complaints about EVE. I’m having fun, I don’t know what everyone keeps whining about. I even like the new skill UI. I love the red dot.

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I KNEW IT! :slight_smile:

For new players? My opinion is no. No effing way. And more important: Not when the actions taken are derived from decisions in favor of the new without considering the effect on what exists, no matter how unfair it appears to be.

I know you are not literally asking what course of action engages new players and that you truly consider making it easier for them could be an alluring way to go.

I wonder where the idea of “making it easier = better for noobs” comes from.
I honestly doubt any gaming choice is widely based on level of easyness… I could agree that instant gratification is indeed a factor to tap into but I don’t believe EVE is something you can “easyfy” lightly. It’s a choice for hardcore gamers. This, is the nature mistakenly being altered in futile attempts favoring newcomers.
It is my opinion that making it safer or easier is such counterflow against EVE’s nature, that I consider your comment on the matter as pure sarcasm.

Which I’m cool with, as you see.

I would attempt to look at the player base from a wider scope> answer questions like:
Is a tutorial truly better than a comrade to learn about EVE?
Should you expect gameplay engagement from gratifying individual actions over teamwork?
Nevermind these questions literally… the point is EVE is already alluring enough but there are things no game can directly provide but that are equally engaging and gratifying which should be encouraged by mechanics. Favoring the new by carrying them in a crystal, comfy bubble will eventually burst if whatever feature doesn’t consider what’s already there.
You can’t pave the noob roads by bulldozing the landscape when that landscape is the ultimate thing the newbie looks up to.

Or, there will eventually be nothing to look up to.

From structures to instalocks, between cosmetics and true features… wasn’t there any way to keep the good about the game anchoring the player base?
Or is it that in no event, the true gut was explored to recognize which mechanics favored permanency?.. Couldn’t those features, once recognized be left alone, let them be?

I don’t know how far can features help one without obliterating the other but I’m sure that the moment someone comes with a solution for the new, without effing up what’s established with whatever level of effort you thing is decent, you will hear less of tantrum.

That includes making things easier as the f**d up part, btw.

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Here is my take on the new.

I always bring the anti-missol lazors as joke but bare with me on the intended pun:

Anti missile-missiles are stupid when you have lasers. That’s a feature, part of the game mechanics worth revising…

What about growth, you say?
Well, when you grow, you gain some but also, you lose some… you can’t forever ride the choochoo train, right? at some point, you just wont fit. Agree?

What about the lazors? you could be shooting anti missile lasers as a feature that vanishes with age. (aging can be time, number of jumps, missions completed, etc just to avoid wise pros disguised as noobs). but which is fundamental for say, a team completing a high level DED.

At that point, newbies would be fundamental for a particular which no one else could do.

Isn’t that a scenario which brings both worlds together?

Something to look up to is not always uphill, not necessarily up the food chain.

What would be more engaging than such coexisting way of being IMPORTANT as the cinematics show on the commercial?

Anti-missol lazors… a joke, yes. But aside the pun, is it really that hard?

Couldn’t the new have a monitor class vessel (dat tank and imperviousness) equipped with anti-miss… you catch my drift. But that one day, well another newb must pilot?

I mean… making things easier… cheesos!

I have been here since 2006.
I said golden age, not perfect. No golden age is perfect, Mr Anderson.
It was those imperfections in the past that made it all so endearing, raw, and natural. Thus where there was no content so to speak, or no balance, the players still found a way. Yes I too has drake.
And yes there was a time when everybody put lasers on everything because it looked cool.
So this golden age, or my angle on it, I cannot claim an official start and end date. I would say sometime around the start of faction warfare and up to the Great Malaise of 2014. Anything resembling a peak would be around the year of live events around and leading up to Sansha incursions, maybe 2010 through 2012.

The advertising of Eve throughout this time frame always sucked though. Look, you don’t want to bring bad people to a game because they are bad players. You want to bring good players and then give them reasons or temptations to be bad. Try to figure out where I’m using “good” and “bad” in a moral sense and a player sense.

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CCP always was terrible when it comes to coding, bugs, lack of QA, “oopsies”, professionalism, balancing etc. But in the old times they were OUR terrible coders, they were with us on this journey.

Then, as always, the marketing money guys took over who had no interest in the game, only in getting “moar” and fat (kinda like grind bears). The only part of CCP that got more professional is the monetisation department, the rest is still as unprofessional as it always was. Even after 18 years there is still no sign of a QA department and they still do a whole lot of dumb ■■■■.

In many ways it’s like what happened to blizzard: the suits at Activision took over. In this case it just happened in house.

Still I’m having lots of fun playing, adapting to changes, restrictions and options. It’s just that most of the things I’m doing and enjoying I could do way back then. The newer stuff isn’t my thing.

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I have seen many threads by people who are leaving the game, there was one defining thing that linked them all despite the difference in their reasons for leaving. They all had a passion for Eve and were expressing their acute disappointment that their passion was misplaced.

That you Mike cannot see that disappoints me.

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Their passion being effortless playing without having to think or worry about others and the sandbox in general, their passion being their limitless and out of control income. Also I’d wager than a large portion of those quit threads are just trolls.

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I have seen threads from people very passionate about PvP too, you might want to adjust your misconception.

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