Even with “slow boat fighters from a siege citadel” air war tactics the fight is usually not much more than a thousand kilometers. If you actually want to not just feed heavy fighters and use titans you need to be much closer than that. Though usually still out of effective dread range.
No, what you propose is a terrible idea and will not be positive.
Which CSM said this would be a good idea, so I know who not to vote for ?
Thank you for reading.
So far all i see is a few CSM arguing to death that their ideas are right and everyone else’s here is irrelevant.
So let’s start with my thoughts.
WH’s are irrelevant towards any sort of balance and should never be considered. They are too limited in what you can bring to counter eachother, and require proper planning. Not to mention any WH effects.
The only option for balancing around WH would be removal of capitals inside WH. (not a very good option)
CSM argues he saw 2 fleets struggle to take down a fax. As rorquals have a similar local tank and fleets kill these all the time. Sounds like some pretty crappy fleets and you should FC better and bring some utility and not just f1.
More thoughts: the killmail shows more than enough pilots to outdo its reps. Comes down to FC/pilots not properly focusing target and them slowly being on/off “reps 6 mill actual damage against a 150+ man subcap fleet for close to twenty minutes until dreads could be brought in range” Only solidifies this point. As 70 man fleets vs a rorqual the rorqual regularly reps 4-7million over much less time.
Other than the opinion on WH’s the rest presented is observed as facts. Argue how you will.
Other thoughts 2.0 : In what world is it good to nerf something in huge increments other than in small amounts?
No, they could just add generic WH effects. Which is what they should do because the WH meta is almost a completely different game.
P.S. Most WHers would rather CCP gave WH systems more compute power so they could actually have decent fights.
Well there goes my fax dreams, why train for one and invest such time if only to be as useful as a penguin in flight.
Rep/boost mechanics can be balanced with the introduction to repair impairment mods or charges (affixed to triglavian ships?) which reduce the efficacy of all reps/boosts on a target.
If you decide to nerf faxes, the change should be gradual until they are where they should be.
Alternately, they could recognize that there’s a significant difference there, and introduce some distinction between ships meant to operate in high-end j-space, and ships not really intended to. For this, we can look at actual history for some guidelines.
Right now, the reason we have to worry about capitals in WHs at all is because C5 and C6 wormholes are big enough to let them in in the first place. Let’s face it, if the only way to get a capital in your wormhole was to build it there, there’d be a hell of a lot fewer of them (and having them would be basically an ‘I WIN’ button).
Right now, CCP makes a distinction between ‘capital’ and ‘supercapital’. Well, kinda. ‘Capital’ and ‘Titan’, since supercarriers use exactly the same skills as carriers, but have fighter bombers and projected effects like bubble points. Oooooh, so amazingly different.
Why not light capitals?
Reduce the jump-mass limit of C5/C6 wormholes. Establish that standard carriers/dreads/faxes can’t be built in them. Introduce ‘Light Carriers’ (or ‘Escort Carriers’ or whatever) and similar low-mass options for dreads and faxes that are more about their outward effectiveness than their survivability.
I mean, not for nothing, but does CCP even understand the idea that a Nimitz-class supercarrier is actually a glass cannon? Half a dozen anti-ship missiles can (based on testing of the point-defense systems of a Carrier Strike Group within the last 10 years) most likely penetrate the defensive perimeter and cripple, if not kill, the carrier. Make it a dozen, and it’s more or less inescapable. And those dozen cost less than one of the aircraft on the carrier.
Especially now, with carriers being such long-range combatants, there’s absolutely no reason for them to be so damned tanky, as well.
With Dreadnaughts, you’d basically be looking at a ‘superheavy’ battleship design: something that brings maybe 2/3 the firepower of a dread, moves slow as hell, and can’t get remote reps when the siege module’s active.
Scale down Force Auxiliary performance the same way (after all, the biggest things you’re facing have also been scaled down).
That’s a starting point. But it needs to be part of a bigger project, where CCP takes stock of what the hell they’re doing, and try to actually set out clear ideas for themselves of what various ship types are supposed to be capable of doing, and what they’re not supposed to be capable of doing.
Until they do that, until they actually establish some clarity within their own efforts… it’s all going to be more tweaks that don’t actually fix things, and more unintended consequences.
Edit: How to keep these pocket caps from being totally ridiculous outside of j-space:
No jump drives.
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With the gap between a cheap T1 fit carrier and a well fit T2+ pirate battleship being only 100-300% in terms of damage output, depending on fit and such, it might be hard to fit another ship type in there. Mayhaps this is the T3 Battleship role instead.
I think that is a bad decision, although this decision will weaken the FAX for the Wormhole Alliances, they are just a small group. this decision will make the FAX useless for the 0.0 battle between Alliances, if there isnt a large amount of FAXes.〒▽〒
Maybe. Or maybe CCP should do something similar to the Attack Battlecruisers (you know, when they actually introduced real battlecruisers to the game, not just Heavy Cruisers?): battleships that carry dread guns.
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Dreads are already barely used except for ganks under a hostile super umbrella.
Instead of “tweaking” things in even that obviously never works or at least to the effect intended. Eve players will always come up with some way to gain an advantage. Instead of these proposed nerfs that effect multiple ships of the same variant why not extend counter options. Come up with another Capital ship with a specific role. That was the original eve way. One that when brought onto the field provides the nerf to faxes. That would force different fleet compositions or make it a specific module that is only allowed on one of the weaker Faxs like ninazu. Providing the nerf to the faxes by use of strategy to overcome obstacles. Would force less fax ships on the field if they had to bring a different ship equipped with a module to nerf the incoming reps. A specific fix for a specific problem. Only ship and/or module effectively penetrating Fax Ewar and providing the field advantage. I don’t fly faxs but I see how things never go as planned. Just floatin and boatin.
What we’re not seeing in all of this is:
What exactly is the problem CCP and the CSM are seeing with Force Auxiliaries?
In what context? Is a single fax too powerful during a capital brawl? During a supercapital brawl? Do we actually have enough data in real supercapital brawls to know? Or is it just with relation to subcaps?
Riiiiiiiiiight. Counterplay against faxes is too limited. Because cap stability’s such an issue that you aren’t looking at cap chaining subcap logi. Because faxes are so mobile once they triage that aggressors use them all the time while defenders can’t reposition to pull the enemy away from their faxes.
Anti-logi options… well, the anti-logi options in subcaps are ‘kill them’ or ‘hope the Guardian doesn’t have a sebo with ECCM scripted, because even your sensor damp’s not gonna keep him from cap chaining and keeping the rest of the logi up’?
What is the exact problem you are seeing here? Because ‘just too high’ without context is like me saying that I think CCP needs to nerf interceptorcs because they’re ‘just too good’. At what? I’m not saying. they’re just ‘too good’.
Yer on crack. Seriously. I dunno how you guys use 'em, but… every subcap fleet we have can bring up to 15 of 'em if the situation’s worth it.
CCP have never heard of void bombs. They also hate armour brawl comps which currently can only work with FAX reps because subcap logi reps only land after 3-4 Ferox volleys.
You know, you say that, but the Ninazu’s surprisingly effective in its niche. Like the Lif, it gets a bonus to the effectiveness of cap booster charges. Unlike the Lif, it doesn’t have to sacrifice tank slots to use them. When you’re fitting it out properly, it’s a real beast.
CCP- a problem is that your design team limits options. The downstream effect is that it creates metas which everyone has to abide by instead of creating new options and rewarding active players. You force gameplay to be cooking cutter passive instead of active and dynamic.
Why not add mods which can reduce target resists over time instead of nerfing resists? Add a remote polarizing effect to triglavian ships. You’re in a titan and ignoring that Damavik/Vedmak/Leshak? expect to be primary once they increase the amount of damage other ships can deal to you significantly.
Why not add mods which actively decrease the amount of remote reps/boosts your target receives? This would forego the need to even touch fax.
These are just a couple of ideas. By all means, build off of them. There’s so much potential to make gameplay more active than it already is. Currently you can already tell the outcome of fights. Nerfing faxes in the way you intend to nerf them won’t change anything, it will just force people to bring more faxes. Nerfing the amount of reps a target can receive or their resists through activatable mods? That would be game changing.
This, Balancing Fax around Wh is bad idea since in NULL sec pvp active fax already is rather weak. Now by cutting it’s local tank by 37% you are rendering is usless and only fax that can sort of work will be LIF that is very easy to neut out. in other words you are kiling active fax fax in NULL some few few corp that you can cound on hand can kill caps with small fleets. IDK you tell me, it looks like a Joke to me. And if you look at KB there is plenty of FAX Dying in WH, So instead of nerfing tank why just not nerf ninazu cap injection or something of sorts. Local tank Nerf Is just Killing the Active tank FAX for the rest of eve for the sake of few vocal wormholers. Also Long Armor rep cycle might just Render fax 100% usless in bigger fights since Armor reps at the end of a cycle, whitch means now subcaps will not get reps before they blow up. Not a very smart move. A lot of ships are dying already and it is not so easy to broadcast and than get repped in time as it is, might not be possible after the nerf.
LOL, so what you are saying is I need to drop both my faxes instead of just the one.
The people who drop faxes in instances where these changes would have an effect (mainly when ganking a Rorqual or other lone cap) can probably afford to drop a few extra faxes to compensate. This change does nothing but irritate rorqual and super owners.
These changes won’t effect supercap brawls. There will just be more faxes, not like most large alliances keep FAX caches around
And besides all this the whole point of a FAX is it’s excessive healing power. It doesn’t do DPS and is otherwise useless, it is literally designed to be the “Oh ■■■■ I’m Getting Ganked” button. These things cost a lot of money to put together for good reason, because they are good at what they do.
The fact that CCP has decided that is, OF ALL THINGS, is what needs addressing, is beyond disappointing. And its not like the majority of CSM doesn’t have a vested interest in seeing faxes nerfed, there is simply no way they would ever provide biased feedback.
CCPlease, get your ■■■■ together.
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Yep. I’ve currently got two fax characters. I could have another two cap characters trained into fax within three months. Buffer FAX are easy to multibox so the limit is how many clients my computer can handle since CCP ■■■■■■ up the game with recent changes like the chat “upgrade”.
All this is going to achieve is even more server load in large fights.
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