Force Auxiliary Balance Proposal

[Brisc_Rubal]

@theRaptor

Now you are describing FAX characters. I’ve dropped mine once in the last two months with some of the heaviest supercapital usage in the last year. One of the reasons it’s hard to get FAX in less committed groups is because FAX are generally ■■■■■■■ boring. You are also describing dictors, anti-bomber destroyers/T3Cs, and even a lot of the time subcap logi.

That’s the reason why you’ve got to fight to get folks to get characters that can use them and to actually bring them in fights. Which is one of the reasons why I think the whole “they’re just gonna bring more” thing is a faulty argument.

@theRaptor

No. The first step is a comprehensive analysis of the problem by people who actually play the game. Not CCP just listening to the whining of megablob coalition members who are only concerned about manipulating CCP into making the game better for their coalition.

This is just flat out horseshit. Plenty of folks who play the game, including me, have been complaining about FAXes being OP. I don’t think anybody can say, with a straight face, that they’re not, especially in specific situations.

This whole argument about counter-play and creating new ships/modules specifically to address FAXes reminds me of the old apocryphal story about the difference between NASA and the Soviet space program.

Pens don’t work in space without gravity, so NASA does a study and spends millions to design a state of the art pen that works in space. The Russians just gave their guys pencils.

Can we just get a pencil instead of spending the next three years arguing over what the pen should look like?

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Arrendis

Have you looked at the state of the main blocs in the game over the last 10 years? Yeah, it is. Whenever people can manage it, their answer is always ‘let’s get more friends’.

You said it right there - “whenever people can manage it.”

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Hairpins_Blueprint

similar changes by changing the numbers?

because changing this nuber kills a lot of possible usage of the ship. IDK why you are on CSM or why you are even rplying to this thread while knowing 0 about meta, fits etc.

Counter mechanic would be much better here, adding more depth to the game that is getting more shallow every year. Like Triglavian based weapon that reduces local and rr that ships get with every cycle that is non stacble. forcing fleet to haze the ship to keep the reps up similar way entosis works now, make it being able to fit only on dreds and baam. Dreds are much more useful, super are dying in blobs, you can kill ships in WH and everyone happy.

You’re asking for a new weapon type that is “similar to the way entosis” works now and you’re asking me why I’m posting here?

Come on, dude.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@theRaptor

Depends what you mean by “small gang”. But I’ve used a few active FAX to bolster a 20-30 pilot fleet fighting a blob many times. It was a standard tactic Horde used when they deployed to Curse to fight Fraternity. The Bean Foreign Legion also used it a bunch of times on deployment or just when fighting lowseccers. It is common in lowsec for armour brawl comps like NAPOCs. A few months ago I lost a fight in lowsec vs IED using NAPOCs and FAX vs our T3Cs and FAX.

If you can find me a BR, I’d like to look at it to see what you’re describing. If you can’t find it, no biggie.

[luciours]

https://br.inyour.space/?s=3068&b=8166420&e=90&t=uvvb

[theRaptor]

@Brisc_Rubal

That’s the reason why you’ve got to fight to get folks to get characters that can use them and to actually bring them in fights. Which is one of the reasons why I think the whole “they’re just gonna bring more” thing is a faulty argument.

Maybe for alliances with low commitment to alliance objectives. For the major super groups where FAXes are alts it is not a barrier at all.

@Brisc_Rubal

This is just flat out horseshit. Plenty of folks who play the game, including me, have been complaining about FAXes being OP. I don’t think anybody can say, with a straight face, that they’re not, especially in specific situations.

Which is why I said a comprehensive analysis is needed. Not “waaaah I can’t break FAX with my four retributions”. Or “waaah I can’t beat PLs FAX blob with just dreads”. Or “waaah I can’t beat NAPOCs and a FAX with my Ferox blob”. Actual quantified analysis not a MASSIVE nerf based off feelings.

What I’d like is for even buffer FAXes to take some skill to use. The reason a numbers nerf is ■■■■■■■ stupid is because you can just multibox more. This is like the rorqual yield nerfs. Mined amounts just keep going up because the miners just add more rorqual characters.

@Brisc_Rubal

This whole argument about counter-play and creating new ships/modules specifically to address FAXes reminds me of the old apocryphal story about the difference between NASA and the Soviet space program.

Pens don’t work in space without gravity, so NASA does a study and spends millions to design a state of the art pen that works in space. The Russians just gave their guys pencils.

Can we just get a pencil instead of spending the next three years arguing over what the pen should look like?

Yeah except this change is more like NASA telling the astronauts to just press real hard when they are trying to use a pen and bring extras in case one fails.

[Pandoralica]

Lifs/ninazus can just inject or they use ancillary repps in the first place. Also not every fleet can bring talisman bhaalgorns with them just in case…

[luciours]

Lol you’re doing it wrong. Ninazu is much much stronger than the apostle in small gang fights. So long as you know how to use it.

[Infinite_Destruction]

It’s the same old story every. single. time.

“Waaaa - we want to blobstompbbqpawn everything we see but those (insert spider-tanking Drakes, POSs, Citadels, FAXs, etc) are too much trouble to defeat so nerf them ! (Oh and buff the stuff we like to use.)”

“Waaaa, we try to blob smaller gangs but they are able to counter us so nerf whatever they do that keeps us from being able to crush them in mere minutes.”

Seriously. EVE is devolving into a game where skills, ships and tactics are being nerfed to favour the mass gank tactics so many like to use.

Here’s a thought, why not make those blobs actually have to work to achieve their aims ? You know, instead of screwing with the mechanics so that all they have to do is warp in, press F1, warp out, brag about their KB stats.

CCP’s response always seems to be, nerf whatever the blob finds annoying and to hell with the smaller groups (even if those smaller groups actually represent the majority of EVE players).

It’s a good thing CCP wasn’t in charge of the Battle of Thermopylae. First they would have nerfed the Spartans spears, then their shields, then their swords and if the Persians still weren’t able to crush them within minutes, CCP would have found a way to nerf the Spartan’s numbers and skill.
Because in CCP’s mind (or whoever), no small group should ever be able to stand up to a blob by using superior skill, tactics and/or ships.

This has happened in other games as well, where the mechanics allowed OP players/gangs to utterly crush any noobs or smaller groups, to the point where people just end up quitting. The only other option would be to try and join the “biggest gang” (or become BFFs with the OP player) and then just try to buff your stats blobbing other n00bs.
Those games generally don’t (or didn’t) last long. (I’m going all the way back to the days of BRE and playing on Bulletin Boards.)

No game will last long if the only thing that happens when a new person joins is that the rest of the people in the game pounce on him instantly and totally crush him.

If CCP didn’t protect the systems with the Training Schools you can bet each training station undock would be camped by blobs of people trying to buff their KB stats by ganking n00bs as fast as they undock.

And as has been proven in EVE over the years, no matter what nerfs are suggested (or who is behind the suggestions), the players simply find another way to do the same thing.

So the blobs are having a problem with FAXs. Tough. Make them work for their victories instead of just handing everything over to them on a silver platter.

Ever wonder why this game never seems to have more than 2-25k people online at a time ? Ever wonder why a game this good hasn’t had a steady increase in numbers every year ? When I first started playing 9 years ago I think the average was 18-20k online at a time.
Kind of makes you wonder why those numbers aren’t higher. A lot higher.

[theRaptor]

@Brisc_Rubal

If you can find me a BR, I’d like to look at it to see what you’re describing. If you can’t find it, no biggie.

https://br.inyour.space/?s=2076&b=8035380&e=90&t=uuubafeabaab

Horde BFL + Origin vs IED and later NC. We went to finish off a Sotiyo (IIRC). We took two mids and gates to get dreads and FAX in range. We bought in dreads to take out their FAX but they kept feeding them in then bought in active tanked dreads at range which we couldn’t deal with. Origin then convod our FC and offered to bring in carriers to take out the dreads. We were working on breaking the NAPOCs with subs when NC. came in and ended the fight.

EDIT: These small to mid sized capital fights are far more fun then the big blob fights, not even considering TIDI. FAX being hard to counter by subs leads to the escalation with caps or supers which leads to counter escalation. And that is far more fun then megablob fights where both sides have run the numbers and decided whether they are going to fight before the fight even starts. CCP should be focusing on mechanics that encourage small to mid sized fights, not making them less likely because of issues with megablob scale fighting.

[Ezeria_Mistanta]

“Overall, these changes would result in roughly 37% reduction in both remote and local rep output for FAX with almost double the cycle time for remote reps in triage. This is a very large change, but internal investigation and CSM input indicate it is warranted.”

Yet none of this data is presented here for community feedback.

The FAX was designed to be strong, it should be strong. The change is inherently going to harm shield based doctrines the most but that seems par for the course.

The real issue is the demographics of the game. Most of the regions where we witness FAX drops or FAX deployments is among us denizens of the game who have put our 10 years in. Meaning, we’re all old 60-170mil sp bitter vets fighting with caps and supers.

Fax is pretty easy to neut with a reasonable doctrine currently; especially if its dropped. Bhaalgorns are a standard compliment to most low sec doctrines, and Capital neuts are a thing.

This will just result in more dread bombing because if I can’t sustain, I had best eradicate the field with HAW and Big-Boy-Gun Dreads.

This isn’t a change that is needed now.

[luciours]

Instead of doing the old and boring nerf bat that usually upsets or alienates a large chunk of your player base you should switch it up and work on counter play before nerfs. I don’t have any great ideas to contribute, but having an option for bringing something other than dreads or supers to a fight in order to counter fax would be much more interesting and fun than a nerf that makes them cost ineffective.

[Doctor_Biologist]

[Brisc_Rubal]

@theRaptor

Horde BFL + Origin vs IED and later NC. We went to finish off a Sotiyo (IIRC). We took two mids and gates to get dreads and FAX in range. We bought in dreads to take out their FAX but they kept feeding them in then bought in active tanked dreads at range which we couldn’t deal with. Origin then convod our FC and offered to bring in carriers to take out the dreads. We were working on breaking the NAPOCs with subs when NC. came in and ended the fight.

Thanks for finding this for me. This looks like a standard cap engagement on a citadel timer though - not a subcap one where you had faxes on both sides. That’s more of what I was looking for.

[Concentrati0n]

I would rather have the proposed bandaid fix while CCP works on real solutions, then reverses this fix when the solutions are completed and released.

if it’s a choice between nerfing faxes and not nerfing faxes, then nerf them

have the local rep changes carry over to dreads too

[Hairpins_Blueprint]

@Brisc_Rubal

You’re asking for a new weapon type that is “similar to the way entosis” works now and you’re asking me why I’m posting here?

Come on, dude.

Changing Values to adress Active fax issue that is not tank amount but infinite cap booster with DSP is. Nerf the tank it changes nothing for WH anyway, It will still tank 40k dps and you won’t be able to kill it wiuth dreds. WHILE at the same time now fax in not able to tank any regular brawling fleet rendering active fax worthless and subcaps won’t be able to catch reps because of long ativation time. Idk you tell me, Also this change does not adress the buffer fax at all, Why not just nerf the reps for Fax that don’t have local reps fitted? why not change wh effects to address probles related to WH meta that don’t exist in K space. Or why not change ECM to apply 100% of the time and nerf RR off logistick with stacking Factor. Or New capital neut that Nerfs cap injection on your and enemy ship, so you risk you dred to kill enemy fax, OR introduce any other intresting Mechanic that counter said problems Instead of throwing another NERF bat that sovels non of the problems presented. That apparently took LONG time to prepare and can be intoduced QUICK.
All the while Rorquals have more tank than faxes, not to mention insane ancilary fits.

[Arrendis]

And they can. They have neighbors. They’ll blue them up to range farther afield. Just like they’ve always done.

[Bezdar22]

may be also look into super carriers fighters power projection on subcaps too

[Agfro_Er]

Interesting to see some fresh changes I like the idea mentioned in here about multiple triage mods, one for remote, one for local focuses.

I want to suggest diminishing returns for stacking remote rep effects on targets. Maybe balanced with stronger command bonuses.

…and pitch consideration for capital electronic warfare / support ships.

[Arrendis]

@Agfro_Er

I want to suggest diminishing returns for stacking remote rep effects on targets.

Honestly, this isn’t gonna work. Diminishing returns means that instead of more reps, you need a smaller number of stronger reps. So subcap fleets become more likely to be long-range snipers who sit still on a knot of Force Auxiliaries instead of kitey or brawling fleets that use mobility well.

I looked at the possibilities of that when they were considering the changes that led to the last round of slower remote reps and optimal ranges.