Gankers During High-Sec PVE missions?

[Honzas_Krutas]

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

How many times have you read something like this on the forum?

Daily.

[Namdor]

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

May I ask how this is relevant to this discussion?

No.

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

If you must have a killmail, take your pick of one of the Marauders lost recently in Lanngisi.

While these are all very enjoyable, there are not nearly enough of them.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

@Namdor

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

May I ask how this is relevant to this discussion?

No.

@Namdor

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

If you must have a killmail, take your pick of one of the Marauders lost recently in Lanngisi.

While these are all very enjoyable, there are not nearly enough of them.

Exactly.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@Eaglefeather

Beginners have credit cards just like everyone else.

Therein lies the problem. You can buy the ship but not the experience to fly/fit it.

[Arthur_Aihaken]

@MB_ThePhotographer

Therein lies the problem. You can buy the ship but not the experience to fly/fit it.

There’s a sucker born with his parent’s credit card in their basement every minute…

[MB_ThePhotographer]

[Arthur_Aihaken]

“How to Make ISK Mining” (until Aiko ganks you).

[Namdor]

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

So, lets discuss level 4 security missions. How much of a sliding scale may the mission runner choose? In my experience, the ship fit must be optimized to survive the mission.

Apart from burners, which are mostly run in frigates, level 4 missions need fairly minimal optimization and are completable with relatively simple shitfits. See T6 abyss for an example of PvE content that needs an optimized fit.

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

Asking them to adjust their fit in order to avoid death by player Catalysts seems wrong.

Suggesting that they consider the possibility of PvP in a PvP-centric game when fitting their ship is simply correct advice.

You’re still welcome to fit your ship stupidly if you wish, nobody is forcing you to play smart.

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

The Suicide Ganking fleets have optimized their tactics to warp a fleet into system and into the mission dead space pocket with minimal warning to their target.

Yes, and? What of it? “They’ve spent a lot of time practicing their craft and now they’re very good at it and that is NOT fair! Why should I have to look for combat probes on Dscan? Why should I have to pay attention to local? Why should I have to exert any effort at all to keep my ship alive?”

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

You are asking the PVE player in high-security space to have faster reactions than the ganking fleet. Said PVE player running level 4 security missions already has a fleet of NPC hostiles on them. Often, those NPC ships include warp and web frigates mixed with battleships. Why do you expect players to accept this gameplay?

“Faster reactions?” The whole game runs at 1hz, you have about 3 business days to react if you’re even half awake.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

It’s just a ■■■■ shame the game leads you into mining when far more profitable paths are available to players. It seems self defeating while they should promote other styles of gameplay as well.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

@Namdor

You’re still welcome to fit your ship stupidly if you wish, nobody is forcing you to play smart.

Please share a smart fit to run Level 4 security missions in high-sec that will survive PVP in that environment.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Arthur_Aihaken

PvP is player vs. player. Playing (as an example) World of Tanks, it’s 16:16. So a lot of 1:1, 2:1 (etc.) individual engagements will ensue. But never 16:1 at the outset.

What you mention is just a subset of PvP called ‘fair team-versus-team’ based PvP.

EVE isn’t a fair or team-based PvP game. It’s not a 16 vs 16 World of Tanks or 5 vs 5 League of Legends. It doesn’t have two teams like Team Fortress 2.

EVE instead is a free-for-all PvP game.

1v1, 2v1, 3v2, 4v1, 2v2v3v1, 250v300, 20v5, 3000v2000v500, 16v1, it’s all possible here.

16 versus 1 is still PvP. Try not to get caught as the 1 and you might win that engagement by surviving.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

@Gerard_Amatin

16 versus 1 is still PvP. Try not to get caught as the 1 and you might win that engagement by surviving.

We are not questioning if it is PvP. The question is how solo pilots might also enjoy the game. Fleets of destroyers constantly hunting solo players engaged in non-PvP activities spoils some of the fun.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

You are asking the PVE player in high-security space to have faster reactions than the ganking fleet. Said PVE player running level 4 security missions already has a fleet of NPC hostiles on them. Often, those NPC ships include warp and web frigates mixed with battleships. Why do you expect players to accept this gameplay?

I’m asking you to have any reaction at all before you get ganked.

Is this so much to ask?

Yes, tackle frigates exist. It could be a good idea to kill those first if you wish to be able to warp out.

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

In exchange for the ship (200M - 1.5B) and fit (200M - 1B+) suitable for level 4 security missions, the player receives kill-rights to a host of gankers.

This means you already died. Try not to die, but warp out in time and/or fly a ship fit that can withstand cheap ganks and can only be taken down at an ISK loss for the attacker.

While such a fit won’t totally stop ganks from happening, it reduces the chance a lot.

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

Non-ganking corporations have high turnover rates. The pattern is so predictable. They get a taste of content they enjoy, they skill into that content, and they invest into the ships suitable for that content. Somewhere along the line, that player goes from rather active to completely inactive. Rage-quiting seems like the only explanation for this behavior. For a game so dependent on player activity, why continue this pattern?

I suspect that players who see PvP as something bad and only play PvE will sooner than others realize that EVE’s PvE in a vacuum is pretty boring.

Might that explain the high turnover rates?

I play EVE specifically because it has free for all PvP. I play it because I enjoy the danger of other smart players while doing PvE, the possibility of outsmarting that mob, outplaying other players, or on the other side of that coin, joining that mob.

It’s a fun style of game but not for everyone.

Luckily high security space provides a much safer space where people don’t need to cooperate with others to get a near-instant response fleet as backup when you get mobbed.

But CONCORD doesn’t mean you can just ignore the PvP part of the game. You still would want to consider EVE a PvP game when you fit your ship for PvE, and still should pay attention to your surroundings if you don’t want to be surprised by PvP.

[Uriel_the_Flame]

@Gerard_Amatin

There’s fits to kill other players in PvP, but if you’re just doing PvE your ‘PvP modules’ don’t necessarily need tackle mods. If you can sutvive and fight them off you’re also winning.

But at that point wouldn’t it be better to actually kill them? If the PvE can be accomplished at a relatively similar (not much less) efficiency, and suspect baiters are active in the area thus are expected to show up, then baiting the baiters and killing them can be a much more rewarding experience than just mere survival and resuming PvE.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

@Gerard_Amatin

Luckily high security space provides a much safer space where people don’t need to cooperate with others to get a near-instant response fleet as backup when you get mobbed.

Are you sure about this? In high-sec, yes attackers expect Concord to arrive in under 30 seconds. They will loose their ships every time. Those players focus on destroying their target before Concord arrives. They warp into place, fire a volley, and battle over faster than medium hulls accelerate into warp. Solo players in high-sec do not limit themselves to medium and small hull types for higher level content like level 4 security missions. In high-sec, PvP is not a cat-and-mouse game. No, it is a cat-and-goldfish game with the cat wearing a goldfish costume.

Level 3 and Level 4 security missions provide excitement as well. Provides a controlled environment to learn ship piloting techniques. Until this month, there was no space much safer than player-controlled null-sec.
As for ship fit, I already asked another player to suggest a smart ship fit adjusted for high-sec PVP. Would mind suggesting how to consider PVP into PVE ship fits as you suggest?
Smart players is one thing. Lazy players intent on making other players miserable creates the constant complaints against ganking. With mob style PvP, there are only two player options: join the mob or quit the game. Seems like Maintainer Bob is asking for a third option from Fenris.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

Not understanding this logic.

Because you didn’t understand that this was a list of things to do, not a sequence of actions. MJD and Suspect baiting are two different things.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

@Dyver_Phycad

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

Not understanding this logic.

Because you didn’t understand that this was a list of things to do, not a sequence of actions. MJD and Suspect baiting are two different things.

Nice try.

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

Not understanding this logic. Give up a mid-slot to fit this item, have a 150% signature radius bonus, and hope it is not within the 3 minute reactivation delay when it is immediately required. Is the PVE player really doing something wrong by attempting to enjoy PVE mission content in high-sec? Or are the Catalyst pilots exploiting a game mechanic?

Context matters.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

The zKillboard statistics for high-sec gank type PvP during the past week is rather telling.

https://zkillboard.com/asearch/#{“buttons”:[“togglefilters”,“week”,“label-loc:highsec”,“label-ganked”,“attackers-and”,“either-and”,“victims-and”,“items-and”,“sort-date”,“sort-desc”,“page1”,“victimsonly”],“includeAssociates”:true}

Most players falling victim to high-sec gankings are in the starting NPC corporations. Top ship destroyed being the Mackinaw. Top ship type being the Exhumer group. Cruisers are second and mining barges third. So, how exactly does one expect PvP in High-Security space while a member of a starter NPC corporation while piloting a mining ship?

Top Corporations
State War Academy 17
Science and Trade Institute 13
School of Applied Knowledge 12
EVE University 10
Imperial Academy 9
The Silver Wing 8
HIGH SEC MINING CORP 7
Center for Advanced Studies 6
Republic University 6
Absolute Order XVI 5

Top ShipTypes
Mackinaw 86
Gila 51
Hulk 48
Retriever 48
Nergal 20
Tayra 12
Obelisk 11
Viator 11
Covetor 10
Harpy 10

Top Groups

1. Exhumer 134
   2.Cruiser 67
2. Mining Barge 60
3. Hauler 46
4. Assault Frigate 39
5. Freighter 25
6. Blockade Runner 18
7. Marauder 16
8. Frigate 14
9. Destroyer 13
10. Deep Space Transport 12
11. Mobile Tractor Unit 10
12. Battleship 10
13. Heavy Assault Cruiser 10
14. Industrial Command Ship 8
15. Jump Freighter 4
16. Shuttle 3
17. Covert Ops 3
18. Corvette 2
19. Tactical Destroyer 2
20. Strategic Cruiser 2
21. Interceptor 1
22. Force Recon Ship 1
23. Black Ops 1
24. Command Destroyer 1
25. Logistics Frigate 1

So? What exactly is wrong with players using mining hulls in high-sec? What is the correct fit with PvP in mind on a mining barge? How about those 10 Mobile Tractor Units lost? Where did those players make their mistake? These players attempted to play this game as intended. Some mob-rule bunch wrecked their fun.

Keep blaming the “AG trolls” for the problem. Eventually, they must get the message. Right? Or, do they simply decide PvP in Eve Online is broken and go play elsewhere.

So baffling that Fenris rolled out a significant update to improve new player experiences while ignoring daily complaints on this forum. Mob versus solo player PVP keep killing off players. How do forum members respond? Demand players involved in non-PVP content adjust their ship fits for PVP. Or pull off an impossible warp-away before the warp-scram hits. How many enthusiastic players choose a new game instead. How soon before even the mob-versus players have to find a new video game?

[Anna_Dyneaux]

@Dark_Rouge_Pilot

You are asking the PVE player in high-security space to have faster reactions than the ganking fleet. Said PVE player running level 4 security missions already has a fleet of NPC hostiles on them. Often, those NPC ships include warp and web frigates mixed with battleships. Why do you expect players to accept this gameplay?

You have at least a minute to hit warp from the moment you see combat probes on dscan. You can easily align to anything and nuke down the one or two tackling frigate rats in that time, yes.

Having done ganking of mission runners, the reality is that most of them don’t even react when a Talos shows up in their pocket, yellowboxes them, and burns into range with MWD.

[Dark_Rouge_Pilot]

@Anna_Dyneaux

You have at least a minute to hit warp from the moment you see combat probes on dscan.

Sure. How do you figure over a minute? How do you expect players to stay glued to DScan during non-PvP content? Are your expectations appropriate for players navigating within high-security space? Know what I reasonably expect? Unusually high game activity hits 40k accounts for a game around for decades.

Know what I know for certain? Eve Online recently became independent. The previous controlling interest, a major video game company, distanced themselves from this game. In the first major update afterwards, the consolidated starter region without PvP content was released. Press releases promised to attract new players and improve player retention.

Currently debating on watching this play out or switching back to Minecraft. It’s recent updates look entertaining.