Getting the CSM to recommend the scraping of HyperNet Relay for functioning stocks and futures securities

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
41

Warframe market credibility works a lot different and would not work for this use case in EVE.

Warframe market characters are based on accounts, which would be equivalent to EVE accounts. Accounts have often been invested in with real cash for skins, plex or warframe’s equivalent plat.

In EVE you don’t deal with an account though, you deal with a (throwaway) character on an unknown account.

EVE characters have little to lose when they delete a character after a succesful scam, unlike warframe accounts.

(Technically a warframe player could make a throwaway alt account to trade on, but without investing time or money in that account the trade limits would be crippling.)

Secondly, warframe market’s player reputation is based on transactions and aims to prevent people from wasting their time. This works well.

EVE’s character reputation would be based on loans and aims to prevent scams. This works only up to the point that the owner of the character deems the loan to be big enough to not pay it back (and optionally deletes the character). I don’t see how that would work out, except for insignificant amounts of ISK.

Maybe try getting your ISK doubled in Jita at the ‘trustworthy’ doublers, see how that works out. Any financial structure in EVE based on trust will face similar problems as your doubling results: you will get what was promised but only if it isn’t high enough value to scam you yet.

42

And that is where the system would have to break new ground, by peering beyond the avatar to the player and account. Even if just some form of anonymized data. And also, incentivizing to provide more verified player data. A first step would be requiring Omega subbed accounts of at least a certain time period to participate.

That is another point where contract definition, and margin calls would come in, along with basic trade book rules, i.e., ceo of listed corp restrictions on stock ownership and blackout windows, etc. Would likely be several layers, from skill point investment to increase minimum time in, capitalization requirements and escrow accounts. Would also have to be a system done incrementally, with rollouts of functionality over time.

43

The only way an Eve stock market and investment in traders or corps would work would be if it was backed up by some form of insurance that was not itself a scam. Difficult even in rl, where insurers themselves get insured. I doubt CCP are ever gonna sponsor such insurance…so one will forever be stuck with the issue of who pays the ferryman.

44

In game stocks that functioned like IRL stocks would be freaking amazing.
Sadly I do not think it is possible for eve in the way the IRL stock works.

2 Likes
45

I’ve been thinking of that.

One control, paid exchange seats. Wanna trade here, or run a brokerage, then pay for this seat with PLEX and maintain these standards of the exchange. That fund of PLEX could be a kernel for such insurance. Would take some working out. But also, would change the social dynamic, as having skin in the game via PLEX, would have influence on participant behavior.

Another way would be clearing fees, on both sides the transaction, of ISK to go into a fund that buys PLEX on the exchange’s behalf. Basically, whenever the fund is over current market value of PLEX, a unit is bought and put in the exchange’s account.

Lastly, perhaps it can’t work securely enough without some manner of FDIC like mechanism. I don’t think that is the case, but supposing it is, then maybe CCP in return for having the exchange purchase PLEX (that they’d manage as a market lever) and create a needed ISK sink, and way to raise currency velocity, would consider some number it be willing to cover in a dire circumstance. I don’t think it is needed, or viable, but if we are talking concept, yeah it has to be on the table.

Edit: Am aware, these be a huge change market functionality wise for Eve. Eve has mostly maintained ISK velocity through PvP destruction, building cycle. To a point of over reliance, I’d argue with the 100 Trillion ISK trade drop of trend reported in June, and the Age of Scarcity knock on effects seeming to still cool peoples risk versus reward threshold for PvP to the degree CCP would like to see. However, I believe now is a time to look to increase the robustness of the Eve economy by moving away from that paradigm.

46

Even if stock traders are backed by something that’s ‘definitely not a scam’, there is nothing to stop those traders from scamming.

There is no possibility to build a chain of trust when every link is likely a scammer, even if the start of the chain can somehow be trusted.

47

And we do have that same state of things now with contracts.

I wish I could come up with a mechanism to not have so much fall on due diligence. But that isn’t a realistic goal here, with lack of regulatory oversite and criminal penalty.

The viable alternatives more or less result in layers, time, and established credibility. May even go so far as to tie character, to account, to player’s offline identity like a CSM candidate, that is likely one voluntary measure a trader/broker could take to further establish a chain of trust. And with the risk of it, they also would likely get greater reward out of it in game.

48

Well, contracts are a direct transaction where either ISK or goods are transferred.

The financial structures you’re suggesting would involve ‘promises of transactions’, which is rather hard to put into a contract: is there a way to force a character to pay up what they put into a contract earlier, when that character could just as well be deleted instead?

EVE has no way to force people to pay up when they don’t want to. Well, you could use extortion when you have superior force and are able to blow something of value of them up, but you don’t need a contract to do so if you can get them in such a position.

49

Which here, the contracts would overwhelmingly be, by the definitions.

A forward contract issued, isn’t tied to a player promising to pay that. It is tied to what is kept in an escrow account, that is non modifiable until the expiration, and then to a counter party of that contract. So, if for example there is a January 10th expiration, on tritanium, for a billion. Before that is listed by the exchange as an offer for bids, an escrow hanger has to have that billion physically there, and not going anywhere until that forward contract has expired, or while it has no counter offers.

With time, brokerage would likely develop, with players able to get margin trading, or borrow commodity, from their networks in game, to evolve it away from forwards to futures trading as the exchange matures. But will admit, that take time to evolve.

50

Why would anyone take for example a loan of a billion until January 10th if they’re not allowed by contract to use that billion on anything?

It’s rather pointless to have such a value sit in your bank account and not be able to do anything with it, why would anyone take on such a contract?

I just don’t see the point of it, with such restrictions in place.

And without such restrictions, I don’t see how it could work without everything turning into scams.

51

Except you know exactly what I mean :smiley:

Huh. So you’re confusing fantasy and reality? Not a good sign bro :smiley:

And a CSM answered LOL.

Oof. If you knew anything then, you’d know you can’t armchair diagnose. I wonder what qualifies you to make this medical opinion?

I sense he knows this. I’m pretty sure his vested interest is he wants to scam people but he is lazy and wants CCP to do the infrastructure.

At last you acknowledge its an opinion :smiley: Also none of that sounds fun my guy.

Oh yea, cause putting that info out there will make people feel so secure ROFL.

There is no point. And yes, it’ll all become scams ROFL.

52

Well, let’s look at it in the classic forward contract sense of a farmer, but applied to someone in Eve.

I have a stockpile of some ore, that I want to lock in a price on now, because I feel it is under risk to a change coming down the pipeline. I think after the coming updates patch notes are released, this commodity I can’t use now for any purpose, due to being maintained surplus for my production needs or whatever, is going to lose substantial value. I also am unsure of if I am even going to be continuing in that production pipeline.

Now say I am speculating, and I think, ‘Nah, CCP isn’t going to do that for x,y, and z.’ But I see a lot of people are sitting on stockpiles and are getting itchy about what they’ll do with all of it. Perhaps I also see they have other risk weighing on it, where they want to get them off their books because they only have so much bandwidth and will be needing to change up to pursue manufacturing the next meta.

A last scenario is, I have no idea how or where I am going to get my Tritanium to feed my production pipeline as some change is looming. I want to, lock in a price now, and take physical delivery of the product in that time period of contract expiration.

So, there you see the usual forward contracts point, to lock in a price today, whether on the hedging or speculating side. Now since it takes time to develop a margins operating market of futures contracts, forwards of this type to allow time to develop the first iterations of extended contracts needed, would take this initial step. After that, gradual moves, to margin, and exchange leverage, could be addressed, and designed for. So that in time, a trader with an exchange seat, can on that same contract put up 10% escrow, and the exchange could cover the margin of the position, along with usual margin call mechanics. But granted, to do the initial technical, and exchange system set up, you’d likely need to develop forwards as a steppingstone.

The first hurdle of that forwards steppingstone is handling the trading of those created contracts. Say I am the last guy, and I sorted out my pipeline issue as expiration comes up. I no longer need my insurance. But the arbitrage is great on the price I bought that Trit at, where it will be well below current market price for the amount, and location when I take physical delivery. I can turn a profit selling that forward to someone else seeking arbitrage, through the exchange.

The best way to think of the forwards is as partially delivered functionality, on a way toward futures. And also a way to start laying groundwork, adjustments, etc, to develop the mechanisms and trust chains to allow full on futures exchange.

Yes, that I am content, in your trolling. I get it.

So, done replying now. Can keep posting, if you want. I doubt you’ll get flagged for the trolling. Wish you well friend.

53

I’m not trolling. You know exactly what I mean and you know it destroys your little narrative.

You know its super gameable and will definitely not work how you plan.

The only angle I can think of you is that you know that and you want to take advantage of it.

54

i dont care about the stock thing idea…

However the Hypernet crap makes me think of casinos way too much and those that might have gambling addictions…

Maybe @Brisc_Rubal could use his RL abilities to help usher in a gaming Tax for Companies that use gambling like structures in their systems…so players can use them, but places like CCP/PA would have to pay for instance the IRS to allow players to use the hypernet.

55

Online casino in games precedent will likely follow where GTA:O’s went, being region blocked where there are bans and taxes.

56

You could literally make your own.

But again, that’d take work :smiley:

57

It would be, but I suspect it would lead to big changes in behaviour…which CCP would not like.

For example, if I could invest in some huge mining company I could get an ISK income from the shares and thus not have to mine myself. There would be less miners for gankers to gank. Same would happen if one could invest in big traders. Smaller traders ( like me ) would simply live off income from shares in big traders…and not go through the risky business of transporting stuff around. Everyone would end up sitting in stations watching their ISK go up…while massive mining and trading corps got even more massive. Small scale mining and hauling would all but die out. In no different a way to how most cottage industries died out when massive corporations came along.

So although Eve stocks and shares seems a great idea…I’m not so sure the long term effect would be good.

1 Like
58

I could see that as an issue to a degree.

I am not sure though if it be far off from what CCP I believe wants, with folks by and large having discretionary and secured income, to keep up ISK velocity as they enter into activities with more risk and PvP once they are established financially. Or if not engaged in those activities, underwriting and investing in them to some degree. I am not sure I could see there being enough capital market investors resulting to shrink the labor pool of Eve to a radical enough degree beyond what the 100 Trillion trade drop of June did as scarcity, and revenue opportunities were being toned down, and had their biggest overlaps.

59

you nor any of us who are not on the CSM have the slightest clue what CCP wants. Though most of us who have been around a lot longer than you can get a pretty good idea based on past decisions what CCP is thinking… and dealing any more nonsense into the markets should be a decision CCP stays away from.

while it’s been good for business for the broker fees to be associated with standings, its also a pain as well to get to the lowest possible fee.

60

I’ve been playing since 2008. I think I could make a reasonable speculation over that time that CCP uses destruction build cycle as a lever on ISK velocity. And that ISK velocity has dropped off a good degree.