That is a good observation.
What is your take on a structure that allows for some sort of watchlist capability, say limited to just HS?
Well thats not true is it. You can have a fully t2 fit frig in a month.
This is kind of what Iâm talking about. Youâre clearly going round telling new players they canât do anything until they are several months old. And then youâre telling them they canât do anything during a wardec.
No wonder their experience sucks.
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My take is that the devil is in the details.
My priors regarding watchlist are negative, for both game reasons and RL reasons, but I am not a dogmatist.
Sure, the devil is in the details.
What are your negatives regarding the watchlist? You can link to an earlier post if you like.
RL: Sometimes you do not want to interact with acquaintances while in game. Sometimes creepy people move things out of the game.
Game reasons (not exhaustive):
Intel should require presence
intel ops should have possibility of discovery (watchlisted status was never discoverable)
Watchlists disproportionately penalized smaller groups. In my experience aggressors with less than 10 members caused more docking/logoffs than decs by the âbig boysâ. It was easier for targets to plan around and track small groups because they assumed (rightly sometimes) that small groups are more targeted. The big boys just meant âuse hauler alts near trade hubsâ.
None of the game reasons are super strong beliefs in isolation. i am willing to table all of the above should I be convinced that benefits outweigh costs.
However, having lived through several iterations of war dec mechanics, and seeing very little actually change with any of themâŚI am skeptical of vague sunshine n rainbows type posts found on Eve-o.
t2 fit with basic core skills and little understanding of how to spiral in or slingshot, it also takes a toon to specialise into that frigate which is not something most new players wish to do.
@Merin_Ryskin @Anne_Dieu-le-veut and daichi
your whole argument for debate seems to stem around basically forcing new players into the more dangerous areas of space and out of highsec (or join an established group) whilst completely ignoring the fact that the high sp wardeck characters are indeed NOT in those areas & are NOT moving on. It seems odd you would advocate that new players should move on fast and older players that have been in highsec should not. Hardly emergent gameplay.
I feel also that somehow forcing new players to play a game one way makes the game incredibly linear and much less the sandbox eve is supposed to be.
But please do feel free to continue telling people that newbros shouldnt be doing stuff, i mean thats exactly what they want to hear when joining a sandbox game isnt itâŚ
What you see as a problem seems like a pretty decent solution to me.
Minerâs R Us is still vulnerable to being ganked, itâs not like they are immune to interaction.
Any members or friends of MRU that do enjoy PvP can now do that, if they choose.
Mercs either get fights with some people actually wanting to play that game with them, or if they feel like MRU is just intolerable sucking up those 'roids they can still gank them.
Games should be fun. If the mercs really want to fight people without concord intervention maybe they should consider moving out of high sec space.
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in one way i would agree, i certainly wouldnt say it was a perfect response to the issue and would basicaly lead to nothing more than a game of capture the flag but i would say it would affect those larger groups in that they would no longer dock up at the merest hint of a fight, it may also make them less willing to simply deck everything in sight.
I think that is perhaps the main issue, which is why i would prfer to see a move to a more contractual system where wardeck merc groups have to actually do work to get paid and greif/blanket decking is not something a group would really be able to maintainon a large scale such as we see now?
fun for all parties yes and if newbs should move out of highsec then indeed mercs should also.
Iâm actually a big fan of the idea that the aggressing corp has to anchor a structure to declare the war. If the structure is destroyed the war ends.
Of course, none of the 'dec corps will like that idea, as it means they will have to actually defend something to keep hunting. But hey, they said they wanted a fight, and it makes getting that fight a tiny bit more possible.
Itâs not like they were declaring wars just to bully new players unprepared or unwilling to fight for sadistic pleasure, right?
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The main issue i see with the structure response is it would likely need a change in the way allies work. For example if VMG were to anchor a structure it wouldnt be long before horde popped it. This would be a recurring theme and likely to make hisec wars a thing of the past for all groups - which isnt what id like to see.
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This is what i want to see an end too.
Yeah, tying the existence of wars themselves to structures is unworkable. It makes no sense to give one group the ability to switch off the PvP ability of another group, especially when wardecs are absolutely needed to remove structures.
Still, there is no reason aggressors shouldnât still be forced to deploy and defend a structure that could be counter-attacked and maybe even drop some of the war fee to the defender that successfully does. I think wars would be better if there was something for a determined defender to explode.
perhaps fozziesov may hold an answer to that, in that if defenders could pop nodes the war would end prematurely and they could possibly snag some of the wardeck feeâs?
You canât have wars end prematurely or people wonât be able to finish the timers on a structure bash. Big groups would just turn of the ability of anyone attacking their structure to wage war.
I think a small financial incentive, plus the symbolic victory of the loss of a war structure would be enough though. There just needs to be some skin in the game so docking up when any resistance shows up has a cost to the pocket book and the reputation.
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Just make the structure itself the cost of declaring the war, and the monthly cost be itâs upkeep.
Ending the war doesnât stop the PvP ability of the aggressor, it just means they have to deal with Concord again.
Thatâs kind of what it would look like if aggressors were actually risking something in the war. They might have something they care about (the ability to aggress without consequence in high sec) taken from them, so they had better defend it.
The answer to timers on structure bashes is to put the same structure timers on the wardec structure. If your goal is to clear a structure you wardec and attack. If you really want it done, make sure you finish before the enemy does.
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ah so a specific small structure related only to the war itself? Which would probably be best placed or have to be placed somewhere between each groups hq?
Ye i was thinking they would have to make some sort of concerted effort to defend those nodes if they wanted to keep wardeck going, a bit like a specific structure they would have to defend but more spread out allowing small groups to run outrider type comps around bigger groups, if that makes sense?
Of course play times, timers, allies; lots of things would need yo be adjusted but
Basically that ^
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You can get everything but t2 guns in a couple of days let alone a month. And you donât even need t2 equipment to be effective.
And how are you going to teach a new player how to maneuver if you tell him he canât pvp until heâs not a new player?
Now youâre just being deliberately ignorant. Havenât said anything of the sort. I live in hi-sec myself. Iâm even for structure based decs myself.
What youâre being told is that new players shouldnât be moddy-coddled. By holding their hands so tightly youâre only increasing the shock (and probably loss) they suffer when they are eventually attacked. Players that die sooner are more likely to stick with the game.
Your attitude influences the attitude of those learning from you. So if itâs âhurf durf noobs canât do anything until they are at least a month old. Wardecs mean you have to dock up for a weekâ, they are going to believe you.
Meanwhile else where other new players are getting on kill mails on their first day and learning that wardecs are neither that restricting nor mandatory. They are not completely helpless.
No they arenât. New players can do whatever they want. Thatâs what the sandbox is about. That doesnât mean they should do it. It doesnât mean there are no consequences. Thats why itâs highly encouraged that new players seek out mentors. But no one forces them to do anything.
On the contrary its you thats telling them they canât pvp until they have a certain amount of SP. Itâs you telling them they canât do anything during a dec.
you keep going off topic chap.
but because you asked i feel inclined to provide you information on skill plans; heres a good read to start you off 
If I was really interested in nailing down the specifics, Iâd make it so that the wardec was only in effect a certain distance from the structure rather than in some particular spot relative to the groups involved. It could be a number of jumps, a given region, whatever.
This goes further to tie the 'decs in theory to in game resources and territory instead of just bullying people less able to fight. That way if the defender wishes to cede defeat without a fight they can just move away.
Then again, I have little to no care whatsoever for the aggressors in these things⌠if they really need to fight people without concord involved, low sec is that way ------>> sure there are fewer targets (because of people just like themselves) and those few targets are generally more equipped and willing to fight (because they are people just like themselves) but that should all be a bonus as now they can play how they want with people that actually want to play that way too.
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Provides a link but doesnât read it himself.
Once you trained all skills in this plan you should be able to fly all T1 frigates in all roles quite well.
And you also realise new players start with most of those skills right?