The tactic you suggest is meaningless to large entities.
You are going to get what, maybe a ship or two that they will never notice is gone? I am sure they will quake in terror at your afk cloaked camp.
At the least you will aggravate them by making them show up to bash your structure.
Your only suggestion is to play the game by not playing the game. I’m not sure you understand how games are supposed to work.
Like Mike says, it’s as if the allies option was built for a feature like this. And even if the defender can dominate the war, Its no fun sitting on an undock whilst the aggressors wait for the main body of defenders to log off. And it’s exhausting doing that for 7 days.
Much less of an issue since the watch list nerf. But aggressors really should be able to track targets.
It’s a shame observatories are so far away.
There is a path to victory. You’re just whining and crying that the path to victory involves PvP in a PvP game, not a magic “make the PvP go away” button.
Given you are under an active war dec…why are you guys being so…well…foolish? Just because they dock up does not mean you can run back to running missions in your dedicated mission fits.
i see nothing useful but a lot of people whining about why highsec decs should stay the same, i mean wardeck groups consent to pvp the moment they undock dont they?
Eve is a pvp game, if they dont like it then they should really find another game to play, eve is not for them…
This is going to be immediately buried, but in the off chance that the observation is worth making, I will make it. Apologies in advance for the wall of text.
The definition of ‘sandbox’ is something I see mentioned and contested hotly often. I’ve heard “It means a game where you can do whatever you want” and “a game where you can build something” and probably a dozen other definitions I’ve forgotten.
At its core, though, a ‘sandbox’ game is a game where you define your own goals. You don’t get to define the rules of that game, and there are certainly limits on what you can do that will be governed by those rules. A sandbox game doesn’t tell you how to reach your goals. The sandbox doesn’t even know what your goals are. It exists only as an arbiter that determines the results of the actions you choose to take.
Eve is a true sandbox in that sense. There is no guided path in Eve beyond a short tutorial and some career agents. Other than that, it’s you, the galaxy, and everything in it. Do what you want and the arbiter will tell you what happens.
When discussing changes to wardecs, we are not talking about enabling sandbox gameplay. That we have. What we are asking for is to change the rules by which the results of all our actions are determined. These rule changes affect everyone, and while they may seem good to you, or the people you know, they may not be good for others, or people you don’t know.
I’m an industrialist, and I’m no fan of being on the receiving end of a wardec, but I do acknowledge conflict as a primary driver of content. Content that has to be made by players precisely because this is a sandbox. We need agency. We need to be able to do something to actualize our goals, and wardecs are a tool used by some for that purpose. Any successful change to the wardec mechanic must preserve that agency, or the game deprives us of our ability to shape the world we’re in, and becomes that much less of a sandbox.
… And what path is that, inflicting meaningless losses on the enemy while giving them exactly the gameplay they enjoy and thus ensuring they will never go away?
How do you force an end to the war?
The problem is you see EVE as Battlefield in Space, where the goal is for everyone to mindlessly line up and kill eachother without ever seeking or accomplishing any other goal but animated explosions. EVE is a lot more than that for other people, and that’s what makes it great.
That was for demonstration purposes only, because some people have a really hard time seeing the problem.
In reality you just stop playing all together, because there is no path to victory. Fighting either drives them into dock until you try to have fun again, or encourages them further.
The only way to go back to the fun part of the game is to stop playing and deny them targets until they get bored. Doing anything else just prolongs the war, ruining to fun of the game.
However, providing a pvp path to victory could encourage them to pvp more. Even in the event they choose to run, you get the chance to intercept them on the way out.
…
Yes, war dec groups consent to PvP the moment they undock. That’s why they’re PvP flagged to lots of people in highsec, and you are free to resolve your war by shooting at them.
Ah yes, your constantly-changing explanation of what is going on. Only you could simultaneously claim that the aggressor corp doesn’t care about losses and is so concerned about losses that they will dock up the moment any possible threat appears. Which is it? Do they ignore losses, or are they avoiding losses at all costs?
The problem is you see EVE as Battlefield in Space, where the goal is for everyone to mindlessly line up and kill eachother without ever seeking or accomplishing any other goal but animated explosions. EVE is a lot more than that for other people, and that’s what makes it great.
No, that is clearly not it. EVE has way more than that. In fact, YOU are the one talking about “Battlefield in space” when you say that losses don’t matter, because you just respawn and go back to killing.
The problem seems to be foolish and linear thinking in a complex setting. Maybe you need a better thought experiment/illustration.
Prior to watchlist removal my corp was decced by a 2 man corp that did focused war decs. We had 3 guys, and we looked at the list of their wars, we reached out to a few of their other targets, got a response from one other corp. Happened to be an older corp of guys who’d already done quite a bit (a stint in NS, lived in LS, etc. now they were in HS). We set up a combined channel, and we set up combined fleets. When our war targets were online we formed up a small gang, obviously larger than their gang and would chase them back into station and camp them there. We did it for the duration of the war…which was 1 week because while we had them camped in station they couldn’t go after us…or their other targets. In the end I’d say “we won”. We had fun, they didn’t and the war dropped ASAP.
Now this probably wouldn’t work so well. Those guys, if they are still playing are probably now part of the hub humping degenerates that Ralph described. Along with several more, if not a dozen or two more, other corp/alliance mates that are on line or could be pinged to get online. Why is that? Because of bone headed changes to the game. Yes, yes, yes…mass war deccing/hub humping has always been a thing. My point is that it was never a thing, but that it has become pretty much the only thing. The possibility that a small corp of newish players could team up with a group of veterans in another corp and kick around some PvPers…that’s kinda gone by the wayside now. Something has been lost. And more’s the pity.
There was a path…not sure there is one now, and to be honest, that that path has been lost or is not so easy to travel…I’m kinda thinking it is because of players like you Mike who do not want any part of PvP. I don’t care if you do not want to shoot other players. Fine your choice, but your insistence on not being “content for other players” is part of the problem, IMO.
So far your every post has been “You should die under my guns because it’s a PvP game”.
At no point do you acknowledge that any other playstyle is valid. The only reason you appear to even tolerate the concept of PvE is that’s how new ships to explode come into the game.
So do tell, what is this mystical path to victory that exists for the industrial corps to win a war and go back to industry? What can they do to force a PvP corp to get off of them so they can play the game in a way that is enjoyable to them?
Well, you could blame players like myself if you like, but even then it wasn’t really a path to victory for them.
Try and understand that not everyone likes direct combat PvP. I accept it cannot be completely avoided or ignored, but that does not make it fun.
That mindset changes the goal from ‘make ships explode’ to ‘ending the war’. It’s possible you could end the war by starving your enemy of ISK to keep it going, but short of that (and good luck with that if the enemy has the backing of people operating in more lucrative areas of space) what path is there?
You give fine anecdotal evidence that it was possible for people who enjoy forming for PvP ops, but for those you don’t what you describe is torture, especially considering there is no way to make them drop the war, you just happened to get lucky enough that they did—and it was apparently just a couple of people not backed by alts in larger and more profitable corps.
I don’t, because it isn’t. Any “playstyle” that consists of “I get to opt out of dying under your guns, by some means other than being better at PvP and stopping you by force” is not acceptable in EVE, because EVE is a PvP game. This is how it was designed from day one, and I’m tired of pathetic carebear farmers like you trying to destroy the thing that makes EVE unique and successful in a market where countless PvE-focused competitors have failed.
So do tell, what is this mystical path to victory that exists for the industrial corps to win a war and go back to industry? What can they do to force a PvP corp to get off of them so they can play the game in a way that is enjoyable to them?
Stop defining themselves as “industry players”, accept that they are in a PvP game, and use the PvP tools they have available to make killing them impossible. For example, instead of mining in barges and whining about how unfair it is that they could be subject to PvP they might try mining in a group with 1-2 mining barges and several combat ships sitting next to the barges to ensure that any attack is a suicide mission.
And no, I don’t care if that isn’t enjoyable for them. If they don’t like it they can leave EVE and go play WoW or whatever, where they can carebear farm all they like without interference.
Oh, right. Sorry.
I forgot you were the ultimate arbiter of who gets to play in the sandbox, and who does not.
Have you even looked at the game? You see that entire line of ships from ORE? You know what they are for, right?
Have you even looked at the game? You understand that the fits required to effectively rat are incompatible for the most part with PvP?
Have you even looked at the game? There are tons of professions and activities that don’t involve PvP except for dribbling dungheaps like yourself who think that everyone should be lining up to die under your guns because you are just so damn cool. So super 'lite. Just really a swell guy. You are the type that gives the phrase ‘mouth breathing baby eater’ a bad name.
Sorry snowflake, but it’s a PvP sandbox. That means that they can provide other challenges to you that direct ship to ship combat. It’s perfectly OK if they get to a dock before you lock them. It’s fine if they fit WCS and get out before you can complete the tackle. They don’t just have to shoot faster and harder, there’s more to it than that, and it’s all valid.
I did wonder why they stayed docked so often…
I think these noobs should move out of highsec, its the natural progression to the game, its supposed to be tough, they should get with it or get out. We all know everywhere but highsec isnt safe space but losing ships is part of pvp “whining and crying that the path to victory involves PvP in a PvP game, not a magic” is just daft, and so is giving other people an actual fighting chance right (sarcasm)?
Most people i know in lowsec, null and wormholes actually laugh at hs mercs, theyre a joke to the pvp community because they rarely undock for any actual pvp, let alone provide anything to that community, or any other ingame i believe.
In many other games ofl combat expertise there are rules to ensure the fight is ‘fair’, it would seem your type of fair would be like pitching mike tyson against a 5 year old and somehow having the conclusion the 5 y/o was given a sporting chance.
In summary in blanket or grief decs where the dec has really only been put up for ‘e zee killz’ the defenders should be given a sporting chance on their own manageable terms, not by the half hinched notion that any allies they may actually pay for are anything but an alt corp that will in fact do nothing but take the money; and remain docked.
This only enhances my belief that a contractual license or agreement where the wardeckers are forced to actively hunt down specified targets would not only work; its needed.
I don’t have an issue with people not liking direct PvP. I was just reading a few days back about Jonah Gravenstein not liking PvP, about how he can’t really do it. But how his view was that while he isn’t going to engage in direct PvP he does accept the challenge of avoiding. He enjoys that aspect of the game. So you don’t want to make somebody else’s ship blow up…fine. But you have to accept that you are providing content for other people no matter what. If you refuse to be a predator you are going to be the prey and that is totally okay. In fact, I would say, be the hardest, craftiest, fastest prey there is. Make those hunting you work as hard as possible. Be as sneaky, slippery double dealing and back stabbing as you have to be to do that.
As for ending the war the goal is still the same…get the other side to not renew the war dec. If you aren’t going to do it via the force of arms, then do it by being underhanded, sneaky, and elusive. If you have to move around or have cache’s of equipment and jump clones to do it…then do that. If you have to refocus your game play to something more station oriented like manufacturing, invention and/or trading…do that. If it means being a prick and undocking in a cloaking ship in your preferred mission system and sitting at a safe cloaked up to make them try and probe you down, do that.
But if you insist on sitting there helpless, fat and clueless…well you are going to be eaten. That is the nature of this game.
See the above. And frankly, given this response…WTF, why are you still playing this game?
Luck? Not really. They clearly wanted to blow stuff up. They can’t do that docked. Once they knew we’d only show up with superior numbers and in ships that they couldn’t handle they had no choice but to dock. It was simply a matter of time till they dropped the dec.
As for larger groups. Congratulations. You got exactly what you asked for on that one, IMO. Maybe we should have not changed the cost of war decs and not gotten rid of the watchlist.
You have a real issue of all the options being only available to the aggressing side of a conflict.
Rather than taking away the war from the aggressing side, your only acceptable solution seems to be getting them to decide to take it down themselves. You have the same bias on other topics as well.
What is wrong with having the aggressors be required to defend their 'dec?
Also, you are barking up the wrong tree on the wardec price changes and their fallout. I never had a problem with ‘decs, but it does not make sense to me that a group can basically turn high sec into low sec without their being a way to reverse it. I don’t have a problem with PvP (I don’t enjoy it, but if it’s not pointless explosions I’ fine with it), but I do have a problem with one sided mechanics.