Currently, remote repping a suspect or a war target shot by a wardeccer results in being concorded. (If there is a megathread that’s alive for this let me know)
This doesn’t make sense for lore, for one.
The rationale for this is it’s “frustrating” to only be able to shoot neutral logi ships after they rep. Here’s the thing, shooting war targets and suspects should never be risk free. You shouldn’t know what you’re engaging, ever. You could go to a FFA, then the one of the 4 people there are alts of one person. You can go in a plex with a lone T1 cruiser, then get hotdropped by 10 phantasms. You can shoot a lone AFK guy at a gate, who would stop being AFK and scram you as well as use a huge buffer tank to kill you with gateguns.
But if I see a highsec suspect, I get a ship slightly bigger than his, then I shoot him. Hell dawn shoots a war target, confident because that war target’s corpmates aren’t in local. I know a corp called the New Eden Police Force, who could only save gank targets not war targets with their remote reps. This doesn’t give any possibility for escalations.
In short, the abuses involved were more of an issue than you not being able to escalate once in a blue moon.
Because escalations because of remote reps basically never happened when logi went suspect, so your ‘problem’ has been already demonstrated to not be a significantly occurring problem.
Nah, never. One time repped a neutral battleship cuz I was bored in lowsec near a gate, he shot me, and I got aggro timer and couldn’t jump though.
The other points are troll. So I’ll explain in case those were serious:
Nice grammer, and also, everything there except getting hotdropped by 10 phantasms happened to me. But I engaged a imperial navy slicer once who had no guns and acted as an interceptor until his friends came over.
Tells you why some people might want to rep neutrals who are being shot at.
Assuming it is true, to achieve this, my proposal should be used, but feel free to debate it.
I wasn’t here when the change was announced, can you recap what those abuses were? (don’t tell me people sitting there suspect and having 20 neutral logi right next to him, cuz that’s what’s good about it)
Talking about this, one sided escalations are enough. One person shoots another, and that person escalates with 20 logi just waiting there. I want shooting a suspect in highsec more like roaming nullsec: you know the opponent is going to escalate.
Still, on the other hand, both sided escalations are nice too.
Hmm… you must be mistaken. I didn’t do that. I just want to be able to rep neuts in highsec. For example, remember the some corps VS pirat war? Would’ve been much less predicable with neutral logi. It’ll make highsec warfare much less stagnant and more murky.
The change was made because of general suspect baiting being considered unfair and wardeccers having overwhelming power over their targets.
The problem with the change is that the suspect flag is now always one person vs the world, and the other problem was wardeccers just brought logi in house and were still overwhelmingly powerful.
Why? They chose to attack the guy… It’s called baiting…
Well, since they now know exactly how strong the guy they’re attacking is it makes them even more overwhelming. At least with neutral logi someone might be able to hire some when transferring expensive stuff (who don’t have to join a corp to help out).
And yes exactly. That’s why the mechanic needs some changing. (TBH I don’t know what changes, I think using suspect instead of criminal is good enough)
Except the logi were flagged suspect before, and there were tons of problems, including things like neutral logi with a suspect flag from remote repping still being eligible for a tether - making them invulnerable. Suspect flags do not disable tether eligibility, and remote repping doesn’t convey a limited engagement flag, so… you can see where this is problematic.
There are a number of edge cases regarding “neutral logi” that CCP needs to address, particularly with suspects/criminals. In my opinion, so-called “neutral logi” should be permitted if the opposing target is a suspect/criminal (regardless of any other factor).
Tutorial design time! Sees a suspect, player attacks it, gets hotdropped, always checks surroundings from now on!
(one thing tho, in incursions when I was logi sometimes I got weapons timers. I think you get a weapons timer if you rep someone who used their guns or something)
PIRAT were some of the worst abusers of neutral logi. No, it wouldn’t have been less predictable. It would have been exactly what PIRAT did every other time they—a wardec alliance—went to war with anyone: plenty of logi who couldn’t be shot until PIRAT needed them.
That said, there does need to be a carve-out for ‘Same war, same side, same fleet’, but CCP’s decided that’s too hard, because of how bad their wardec mechanics are under the hood.
I think this is ultimately the crux of the issue. If done right, running neutral logi in hisec presents both the logi and the fleets they intend to assist zero additional pre-fight risk while providing a massive benefit once the shooting starts. In order to balance this in any meaningful way, hostiles would have to be able to shoot the logi before they started repping…and at that point they’re no longer truly neutral.
I’d still like to see some way for pilots not directly involved in a conflict participate. I think that the current mechanics are a bit…oppressive, but all of the less oppressive proposals I’ve seen (including the old status quo) are far too easy to abuse and I prefer oppressive to readily abusable any time.
And knowing that they’ll be there, and that yes, groups like PIRAT will suddenly have an addition 40 or so logistics cruisers, demoralized opponents to the point where many just wouldn’t even bother fighting back (which is exactly what PIRAT wants).
What I’m actually saying is that being able to shoot logi before they rep doesn’t change so much. Now people just have these neutral logi in corp and let them jump corp every 15 minutes. The amount of logi doesn’t change (much) but in consequence it would make gameplay very stagnant.
Except that doesn’t work because if you jump your logi around then you can’t actually use them, and it takes a day or so each for various timers and other stuff to tick down.
What you’re proposing was removed because it was a problem and it’s not coming back. The problem wasn’t that people didn’t know what they were getting into, it’s pretty darned obvious when there’s 3+ Logi sitting idle around a station orbiting a container and one flashy war target/suspect guy sitting on said station what’s going to happen.
The problem was that the mechanics involved made it basically risk free for the guy doing the repping/baiting. There were zero consequences to this tactic and therefore zero reason to actually have your Logi pilots in the same corp as the war.
CCP tried a few low-grade nerfs, messing with aggro timers and docking mechanics and that didn’t work so they nuked it from orbit.
And no, it didn’t encourage any kind of escalation, it was basically just risk-free trolling. I was in Eve Uni for some of the golden years of this crap, and we had it happen all the time with our wars. Every time we counter-escalated, like having someone shoot the bait to force a weapons timer and then jam all the logi, the person engaging in the behavior suddenly found better things to do for the next week or two because they now knew we had fast-locking EWar in the hangar and could pull it out.