Removed a ton of off topic posts. Keep it on topic, thanks.
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god bless
Christ, I come back the next day hoping to see productive dialogue and get the exact opposite. Why did I expect otherwise?
Aiko, there are appropriate subforums for roleplaying, but in case itâs escaped your notice this particular subforum is not one of them.
Weâre here to discuss EVEâs lore, and your refusal to drop character and engage in a productive discussion with the rest of the forum says more about you than it does about the players who are exasperated by you.
Your question about EVE lore regarding miners is a valid one, but if you refuse to drop character and engage with the rest of us then maybe you shouldnât be participating.
âŚaaaand the posts have all been deleted. Welp! Back to the topic at hand.
After thinking it over, Iâve formed a hypothesis that the reason miners operating in empire space donât have to jump through more hoops in order to do so legally is due to the fact EVE is not real life; itâs a game, and games are about having fun.
The way it works in real life, according to my limited knowledge of the subject, is that any natural resources found within the borders of a sovereign nation are considered that nationâs property by default.
In order to extract those resources, an individual or company must have permission to do so extended to them by that nation, else their actions would be considered theft.
In order to get the necessary permissions to operate inside the borders of that nation and extract the resources, an individual or company will have to negotiate with that nationâs duly appointed representatives, a task that can require years of dedicated effort.
CCP is not going to implement a system like that for players who want to mine inside an empireâs sovereign territory. Setting aside the technical limitations they operate under and the limited number of man-hours they have available to work on the game, expecting players to slog through all of that is just unfeasible because, as SovietWomble so aptly put it âIt may be immersive, but itâs not fun.â
Going through all that is not only a load of hassle that most players would rather avoid, itâs boring. Why would anyone bother to do that when there are more fun ways to play the game available to them or, heaven forbid, other games entirely?
EVEâs lore is fictional my friend, did you know that?
(blinks)
Yyyeeeaaahhh? That doesnât make the lore unworthy of discussion, though. Isnât that why weâre all here in the first place?
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So if CODE. claims to have displaced the fictional empires, and CODE happens to be a major alliance coalition in the fictional game - then those players have in fact displaced the fictional empires, because the fictional empires are just a fictional construct whereas the players are real people who are actually playing the game in real-life.
In other words, CODE is very much a part of EVE lore, just as much as GOONSWARM.
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âŚI donât know what to say other than youâre getting really meta with this.
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I think the most recent responses to this thread reveal the real question that wants to be asked, and from my perspective itâs a perfectly valid one.
Is what CODE does, and how it does it, valid roleplay?
Well, yes. Yes it is.
A cult-like organisation, following a charismatic individual with a messianic complex, crusades violently across high security space in New Eden.
Seems valid to me.
That said, a refusal to break character after asking an OOC question, in a section of the forum that is exclusively OOC (for the benefit of the roleplay that exists in parallel to it), knowing that it frustrates the other people taking part in the discussion, makes me doubt that that question was asked in good faith. It makes me suspect the CODE/lore threads exist purely as another way to mine salt.
I thought the same when I followed the âsuicide ganking is lore friendlyâ thread earlier this year. Just more salt mining.
It could be an interesting discussion.
Of course, Iâd point out that while CODEâs mining permits are a great invention, as a tool for extortion by a violent cult (all perfectly valid roleplay, remember), theyâre open to equally valid criticism and derision by their opponents.
I mean, why doesnât someone just point to the POS Starbase Charters as something that the various empires issued? No mining equivalent has ever been issued or requested by the empires, even when a capsuleer completes mining missions for the empires in empire space!
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(looks at thread)
Wow, Diana Kim is pretty damn reasonable when sheâs not posting in-character.
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Yes, but we arenât roleplaying, thatâs the thing. We actually believe that miners should get mining permits. We believe that in real life. So itâs not a roleplay.
Iâm sorry, it sounds like you are trying to quote some sort of official forum rule? I donât see anywhere here that says roleplaying is forbidden, not that I am roleplaying, but Iâm not convinced that is even a rule.
No, this thread exists quite simply for wondering whether it makes sense for an immortal capsuleer to become a lowly miner. It doesnât make sense as a part of roleplaying lore, and it certainly doesnât make sense in real life.
The purpose of this thread is exactly what was stated - how does EVE lore explain miners? If we were playing D&D, and you told me about this immortal warlocks who do nothing all day but grind rocks for less than minimum wage, I would find that odd and wonder why they are doing that. Is there some canonical story about why capsuleers would perform such a mundane boring manual labor task?
Iâm not the one who diverted this topic into a debate about the CODE., but obviously a number of people who play this game have decided that they should take action to discourage what they see as illegal mining. Iâm just curious whether there is anything in the lore which justifies this absurdity. Itâs literally like someone becomes a NASA trained astronaut, and then they are assigned to drive a garbage truck. Why?
See, that is interesting.
Personally Iâm of the school of thought that everything everyone does in EVE is, by default, roleplay, whether the player is conscious of that or not. After all, despite the popular saying, EVE is not real, and you are not an all-but-immortal capsuleer, and New Eden isnât a real place. Youâre playing the role of that capsuleer when you log in and undock.
But I take and accept your point:
As a group of players you hold a firm belief that mining in game should require a permit-style item that comes at a cost, and you support that belief through your game play. I actually find that laudable.
Earlier you said,
I refer to this now, because this feels like a contradiction, or at least it suggests your premise is undermined by your own standards.
Letâs ignore the fact that this sounds a lot like roleplay, which you say youâre not doing.
By the same standard, what evidence is there that the central empires of New Eden have been displaced? Their customs and naval ships still patrol the gates. The empires themselves still feature regularly in the news, and while theyâve been reported to be responding to threats to their territories by Drifters and Triglavians, thereâs been very little concern about CODE. Or at least thatâs what the lore seems to be suggesting.
Thereâs no denying that CODE operates across huge areas of space to enforce its beliefs, but thereâs nothing in the lore that supports the idea that CODEâs worldview has actually replaced the laws of each NPC empire, or legitimised in any other way.
Perhaps the current Chaos Era has something in store 
But to your question.
Why would an all powerful capsuleer stoop so low as to fit a mining laser to their ship, never mind point it at an asteroid?
Consider, that the NPCs in EVE have agents specifically intended to give mining missions to capsuleers, rather than using their own workforces. This suggests there is an expectation within the EVE setting, that independent capsuleers will be doing these activities willingly. There are also capsule-compatible ships dedicated to mining. What NPC corp is going to waste the R&D investment if thereâs not a market for it?
And also, what do most capsuleers crave? Power.
And if a capsuleer isnât skilled enough to take that power by force? Well everyoneâs different, and some capsuleers are better suited to acquiring power by other means. And for them, what better way to acquire power than through wealth?
Humanity has always chased wealth. Whether it was the gold rush of the 1800s, or the rush to Outer Ring in search of Noxcium.
Capsuleers are no less greedy, for power or wealth.
Itâs a mistake to just assume the violent route is an inevitability.
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Your previous post says otherwise, as Bataav has pointed out, but you also raise an interesting point here:
This sentence jumped out at me, and I think it can help me explain why capsuleers would resort to mining.
You see, in the various settings of Dungeons and Dragons, âwarlockâ isnât just one of several interchangeable terms that people use when talking about spellcasters. Itâs a distinct class with its own flavor and mechanics that differentiate it from the other two âcoreâ arcane spellcaster classes, the wizard and the sorcerer.
Wizards can learn an unlimited number and variation of spells, but can only cast a limited number of spells per day and has to prepare them for use each morning via a lengthy ritual. If they want to cast a certain spell more than once, they have to prepare it several times.
Sorcerers donât have to prepare their spells ahead of time, can cast more spells per day than a Wizard can, and there is no limit to the number of times they can cast any given spell. In exchange for this added flexibility, thereâs a limit to the number and type of spells that sorcerers can learn.
Warlocks take the sorcererâs schtick and dial it up to eleven; they have a very limited number of spells they can learn and most of them involve hurting things, with very few âutilityâ spells like what are available to wizards and sorcerers. In exchange for this, Warlocks can cast any spell they know as many times as they want, and get a special ability called âeldritch blastâ which can easily kill or seriously injure any bog-standard human in the setting.
Also like sorcerers, warlocks get their powers due to having a supernatural being in their ancestry somewhere, with the stereotype being a fiend of some sort. Unlike wizards, they donât need to study and practice to use their magic; itâs literally part of their soul.
Itâs entirely possible for someone to awaken as a warlock in their village or town and decide to stay where they are instead of becoming an adventurer (provided theyâre not run out by an angry mob), and their abilities mean they could be a considerable asset to wherever they live.
A warlockâs eldritch blast is less useful against objects than creatures, but it isnât useless. Any situation that requires applying force is somewhere an eldritch blast can make things easier, like clearcutting a forest, or in hunting animals for food. Naturally, itâs also useful if a group of bandits decide to raid the warlockâs home.
In light of all this, unless the warlock feels a powerful urge to become an adventurer and risk violent death in some godsforsaken realm heâd never heard of a week earlier, what reason would they have to leave when theyâre an extremely valuable member of the community they live in?
It may not be much by the standards of royalty and archmages, but compared to what theyâd have without their powers itâs a pretty good life, and the same can be said for capsuleers who decide to make their way in New Eden by mining ore, ice, or gas instead of joining one of the massive nullsec empires.
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Mining is a choice many industrial wannabe tycoons make; After i left the naval academy i did not choose mining⌠i chose to not be afk watching getflix in highsec, i chose life; a pirates life!
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If you are ACTUALLY asking how lore explains miners though thats funny; thats sime kind f special that is lol
Okay, that doesnât sound like an unreasonable goal. The asteroids in any given empireâs space belongs to that empire, so it makes sense that they would want to keep capsuleers aligned with their enemies from taking those resources. I canât imagine the Amarr should be expected to let someone mine in their space if that person was probably going to hop the border and hand those resources over to the Minmatar.
This leads to an issue of how CCP might implement such a system, because players canât really sign on with the official NPC mining corporations (Astral Mining Inc, Deep Core Mining Inc, Joint Harvesting, Minmatar Mining Corporation) at the same time theyâre part of a player-run corp.
It could make for some interesting roleplaying opportunities, which is good, but it might not be feasible, which is not so good. Still, I like the idea.
So now the empires are bots, which CODE was pretty explicitly formed to combat? Earlier in the thread you said:
So which is it, Aiko? Iâve given you the benefit of the doubt up until now, but if you canât stick to a coherent argument then Iâm not going to bother responding to anything you say. If the forums had an actual rule against debating in bad faith then you can be damn sure Iâd have reported you for this.
First of all, âstale bread and rotten potatoesâ? Did you not read the part where a warlockâs powers would make them valuable to the community? Theyâre not going to be working in awful conditions for meager rewards because the community will want them to stick around instead of leaving for better pastures.
Second of all, I absolutely would find laboring in a coal mine to be underwhelming because D&D, like EVE, is a game where players can do any number of things more interesting than everyday labor that youâd find in a small town or village. Of course Iâm more interested in going on adventures, because theyâre more fun, more interesting, and Iâm not actually putting myself in harmâs way!
When I talked about warlocks, I was explaining why someone who suddenly found themselves in possession of cool supernatural powers might decide to stick around their hometown instead of riding off into the sunset, looking for adventure.
Player characters are going to do that because theyâre player characters, but NPCs? Could go either way.
Warlocks arenât inherently evil - though that is a common misconception in-universe - and taxes are a perfectly reasonable expectation for a pseudo-medieval kingdom setting like what you can find in D&D.
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Capsuleers are privateers created and lightly employed by the empires.
There are untold legions of Empire and & civilian ships that are never seen in-game, which take vast amounts of resources to create. For gameplay purposes, CCP wanted a capsuleer run market. So in-game, the NPCs supply basic goods and missions to get brand new capsuleers started.
After a bit of time doing this, they have networked with others and joined a capsuleer corporation. This corporation has a need for ships that canât/wonât be supplied by the empires, therefore a need to gather resources. So some mine ore to refine, then build those ship for their corp.
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This has been explained to you 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6 times already, and youâve invariably ignored each one.
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that cause this thread was just started trolling through propaganda
No, I didnât find the explanation very convincing - self-serving and convenient, but not at all compelling or believable.
On thing to take into account here lore-wise is that also in the game world, independent capsuleers are a new thing and a rare thing and possibly a thing the creation of which the powers-that-be already regret. First of us came into being at EVE launch, that is.
There are capsuleers other than independents (player characters), in the service of national navies etc. They likely have different, and more strict, rules about such things. Becoming an independent is rare, difficult, and costly af, and comes with both benefits and downsides.
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