Not only that but it’s always been the same topic - mining and ganking in highsec.
They still don’t address some of the things I mentioned earlier in the thread (or even attempt to).
It’s a hypothesis. It’s not concrete. You have no evidence of this happening, or at least not presented a solid argument that would support that hypothesis.
If you cannot even see that “Do this and the sub numbers will double” is not a solid argument, then you are lost.
Send me your ISK and I will double it. Ignore the naysayers, I’m telling you it is the truth.
There is no promise, no. But its a far more likely option then “kill the noobs” or “keep beating the noobs up”.Evidence for that? Because people got a lot happier with the war eligibility system. Make the change, i dare you. You will see i am right, i think we both know it, but your scared to be wrong.
Hmm lets do the math on this
Potential PvP population = maybe 50% of all mmo gamers, and only around 20% Do only
pvp the people that dont want pvp
vs
many mmo’s demonstrating 80% of the population is pve based.
Which is more likely to have the biggest impact on population?
Dont be intellectually dishonest. Your wrong, and we both know it, and any designer with intelligence knows it.
no, there is no promise on any system, but there is likely hoods (percentage chance), and in this case, the population will grow 100% chance of it.
They would also know the negative stigma concerning PVP and why it has that association, and how despite people not wanting to fight other players the most “successful” games have players fighting other players thanks to nothing more but a skewed perception of fairness.
It’s always a great way to dismiss any argument by calling the opposing party stupid.
Let me just remind you, that I was not the one to use a 102 vote player made forum poll, as a basis for my argument.
I don’t think you should call me intellectually dishonest. I think I’m done here.
You are intellectually dishonest, because you are hiding or deflecting from the truth. Maybe my higher level terminology is not properly reflecting the proper emotional response. I could see how that could be offensive.
Lets back up
Statistically speaking, 80% of those people that left eve, are pvers as their primary focus. This is easily established by many examples and evidences.
If we are just talking about the people that left this game, the biggest group of people are pvers. Thus, its insanity to try to appeal to 20% when you get 80%.
So your being dishonest, by saying that this position is not a “concrete one”, because its far far more “concrete” then appealing to 20%, which by the way itself is decreasing.
Where is this 80/20 figure even coming from.
Show me one, just one game, that has a few million players and 80% of the population is pvp AND ONLY PVP, ill drop this and never return to the forums.
Other wise, these points are invalid, and wow, empyrium, and all the other mmos other out there are example of why, you are all wrong.
If you want to consider me arrogant, or ignorant for that, im ok with it and ill take the title and gladly continue on fighting the fight.
however, i am only arrogant, and ignorant if you can prove i am wrong, that there exist million(s) player mmo’s with almost purely a pvp focus.
this is what your trying to advocate for eve.
If your not, then you need to negate from your position and encourage ccp to heal this game by giving high sec to the pve-anti pvp players.
Industry Statistics bro.
On a side note, i was not calling you stupid. I was calling you intellectually dishonest. Stupid is you dont know, Intellectual dishonesty is when you know the truth, and conceal it to validate your position.
Its not different then saying “strawman” or similar forums of debate-related terminology.
So I’m manipulating and dishonest.
Ok, great. I’d prefer to be stupid for sure. What a great turn of events.
Maybe dial down a bit on the personal attacks there buddy. I don’t think I’ve flamed you even once personally. I’ve only questioned the solidity of your arguments.
Maybe keep it civil, if you want people to respond back in a non-trolling manner.
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Just for clarification -
I said “successful games”. I’m not talking exclusively to what we would traditionally call an MMO, but games in general. That would include PUBG, DOTA, League, Fortnite, Starcraft, and so on. Games where players are actively engaging and competing against other players.
Also why are you so concerned about who is right? That’s honestly the last thing to be cared about.
Present evidence (as opposed to arguments) to prove me wrong, ll negate my position and apologize for calling you intellectually dishonest, other wise, i can only accept that you are intentionally dodging the evidence, well known to all game designer.s
Im not really to be honest, i just want you guys to admit you wrong for the purpose of going forward.
If i admit defeat, the game stays as it is, even if i am right.
If you admit defeat, we can be honest to each other and find a middle ground; but that is not going to happen as long as you keep saying “there is no proof that pvers will ever help this game, like, omfg” “your a dirty casual”
That gets us no where. I know i am write about this, and interestingly, the changes made by ccp seems to validate this information, since they are making pve-related changes to high sec (war eligibility, neut rep nerfs etc).
Are those changes really hurting the game?
I gave you feedback on the sources you wrote in the other thread. You ignored those. I also wrote a post regarding niche markets in that thread you ignored.
The study you referenced did not support your conclusions. At least not in full. I made my arguments regarding that in the other thread as well. So my evidence, was in that study you referenced yourself.
Also, I haven’t made a statement calling for any changes, so I don’t need to present any evidence, since I’m not making the claim that PvP is the way forward. All I’m saying is, that you haven’t really presented any real arguments to support your claims other than your own beliefs or what you call “well-known knowledge in the game designer community”.
I’m not making an argument for either here… I’m just saying your argument, so far, has been rather weak and full of suppositions.
You have clearly implied, and directly advocated for “staying with pvp instead of changing to pve”. I never linked a study, i linked random examples of evidences to it (which i stated).
I want to change this around a bit, and provide a trail of thought to consider.
Lets say i flipped to supporting only helping pvp to get people back.
What could i advocate for, that would bring a lot back?
Changes to existing systems that have been used to create unfair situations and circumstances for as long as they’ve existed. Again, perception of fairness.
Maybe, if you are looking through the glasses of someone who sees PvP as bad, then maybe I am implying. However for a normal person, I have said no such thing.
In the linked post, you write:
Im getting close. I found some vague statements claiming things like
The largest 14.1% of male is motivated to play competition, followed by 11.9% of male who plays for destruction. (Quanticfoundry, 2016)
So you reference that study to because you think those 14,1% and 11,9% is a minority and supports your claim of PvP being a minority motivation for players, while in reality that study concluded those aspects to be the primary ones for males.
Don’t try to weasel your way out with “I never linked a study”, when you clearly referenced it. Kinda ironic considering, you called me dishonest and manipulating.
My mistake, I retract that statement and apologize, as i had forgotten about that article.