im specifically relating to the 'ankers that target newbro corps for wardecks tbh
there are other special cases too that may really need to opt out for various reasons - but these players should have some restrictions somewhere that will not allow them to effect the economy in major ways; for example a mission runner that has opted out should only earn so much and/or only be able to spend it on a b or c.
That would be a simple example, not a complete mechanic…
Oh totally 100% with you there…
With the ones I’ve assisted with so far it’s been working. The lack of safe zones has also been helping in their experience by providing them the environment to experience what they learn and put said learning into actual practice.
A mentor role, more or less. Mind you not holding their hand through things - they’re left to figure out ship fits and how to engage groups of enemies at once on their own. But it’s not as if they’re on their own with no support if it’s actually required.
Taloris
I think it’s clear to most people that If everyone had a mentor or joined a good Corp, the retention rate would go way up. It would also remove the need for some (not all) of the suggestions that have been made here. I son’t remember seeing a suggestion that would provide either one to every new player.
I don’t think the safe/not safe question is as clear-cut.
Some people don’t care about safety, and just jump right into EVE (e.g head off into WH space as soon as possible (sometimes sooner 
). Some of those report afterwards in the forums that it worked well.
But it’s equally true that some people don’t like to start that way. Some, including people who come to EVE with extensive PvP combat experience, prefer to take things step by step, and Step One may be generating income and learning how to fit a ship for different purposes.
Clearly it would be better to support both groups, rather than choosing one group at the expense of the other.
This, BTW, is why I don¨’t like the childish “0% or 100%” claims that are so common in here. EVE players are humans, not drones. They won’t all react the same way. I’m confident that some who would enjoy playing as an experienced player can’t be bothered finding a way through EVE’s hostile environment as a beginner.
Right now EVE “selects” new players that can deal with the initial 1 to 3 months. I believe they are a minority of the players who would enjoy EVE after 6 to 12 months.
Every single item in the game, other than basic items, mission rewards, LP, and blueprint originals, has been made by a player, from materials mined or otherwise procured by a player.
Every bit of basic kit/loot you sell, is bought by another player. If no one wants it, you can’t sell it. If you want a new ship, you’d better hope someone is manufacturing them.
Other games have an economy of sorts, the sellers are rarely people though, and very few have an economy where players are the only people that sell and produce 95% of the goods.
This is why the PvE in Eve is considered by many of us to be a form of PvP.
I’m not convinced the numbers are such that it is a “minority”, but I’ll agree a significant number of potential long-term players do not make it past the first few weeks/months. There are many reasons for that though, only some of that being because of harshness or loss to other players. Some are lost to the sometimes mystifying game mechanics, and I think many are lost to just sheer boredom or maybe more charitably, lack of direction the game gives.
It’s not a simple problem to solve: CCP has spent years turning the dial towards ‘safer’ yet with little noticeable difference in activity metrics. Exactly why is unclear. Perhaps they haven’t turned the dial enough, although I think it more likely that the problems largely lie elsewhere than the early game just being too dangerous. Perhaps increased safety has indeed increased retention of one type of player, while driving another cohort away. It is impossible to say with more data, but I am skeptical even CCP with all their data could know.
Regardless, I think most can agree integrating new players into the virtual world could be done better, and I think CCP Ghost and his explorations are on to something. Helping players find if not groups, at least the social aspect of the game, and cultivate their sense of agency and understanding is probably the path forward, and not trying, yet again, to delete game play in the name of making things safer for the newest players. New Eden isn’t safe and making a safe bubble beyond what is necessary to learn the core mechanics isn’t helpful or useful. Such a place has to be devoid of almost all resources, and as most Eve players will tell you, it is those resources which are often the fun part of the game, or enable the fun parts.
Apparently you are unaware of things like skins, injectors, extractors, Plex. Also of NPC buy orders, commodities, ‘blue’ loot.
Also of the many games that have active farming, crafting, looting, raiding, trading systems. Also of the games where 80% of the ‘economy’ is carried out on the player auction houses/exchange.
This is why the “PvE is really PvP” concept in EVE is considered by many of us to be pure BS.
In the context of the discussions where it is relevant (player retention, griefing, safety, wardecs), PvP means player to player combat. It does not mean “I mine more than you”, “I .01 isked you on an item”, “my production efficiency is better than your production efficiency” or “Ha hah I dissed you on the forums!” (forum PvP).
However the people who feel a desperate need to cling to certain views about EVE will happily twist any conversation away from the relevant points. And of course, then there are those who disagree simply because it is their nature to disagree, regardless of the validity of the point.
I missed out a few words.
Every single item in the game, other than basic items, NEX items, PLEX, mission rewards, LP, and blueprint originals, has been made by a player, from materials mined or otherwise procured by a player.
Extractors and injectors for the most part can be considered as player manufactures, as the SP mainly comes form the SP pool of players with a lot of it.
Does that satisfy you?
Also of the many games that have active farming, crafting, looting, raiding, trading systems. Also of the games where 80% of the ‘economy’ is carried out on the player auction houses/exchange.
I am aware of this, I just can’t think of one where the manufacturing side of it is as comprehensive as Eve’s.
PvP means player to player combat. It does not mean “I mine more than you”, “I .01 isked you on an item”, “my production efficiency is better than your production efficiency” or “Ha hah I dissed you on the forums!” (forum PvP).
I don’t know what definition of PvP you’re using.
PvP is player vs player, the definition doesn’t specify combat, it specifies conflict, which is a synonym for competition.
Player versus player (PvP) refers to a game that is designed for gamers to compete against other gamers, rather than against the game’s artificial intelligence (AI). PvP games generally feature an AI that acts as a second player if the gamer plays solo.
PvP games are the opposite of player versus environment (PvE) games, where the player contends largely with computer-controlled characters or situations.
Player(s) versus player(s) , better known as PvP , is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants…
*Wikipedia
If I pop roids out from under you that is competition, regardless of whether or not you consent to it. Every market trader is in competition with other traders, every manufacturer is competing with other manufacturers.
And loot drops, exploration finds, event rewards, Abyssal drops… etc etc. Seems you keep missing stuff. Extractors are pure NES purchase, and 50% of the value of an injector is the extractor, typically.
Regardless, the point stands: EVE’s economy is somewhat more player driven than some other games. Most top MMOs have an economy, not ‘of sorts, where sellers are rarely players’, but containing almost as much crafting, trading, and player exchange/markets as EVE does.
This does not somehow magically transmute all player interactions, market, mission, exploration, production, mining, etc. into ‘PvP’.
Really great post!
I’m a new/returning player and I’ve run into a few frustrations trying to get into EVE. I’d say if we’re trying to get players to stay then some changes should be make it less difficult. I’ll try to keep this short. In general, the biggest hurdle is that EVE does little to integrate new players into the community and culture. These are just my experiences.
I want to make ISK and decide to run missions and kill rats. For a new player this option is easiest and makes the most sense. Unfortunately, it’s boring and pays terrible. Not a great first impression! So I venture into low-sec trying to get better paying rats to kill. I think you know what happens next.
My 55mil ISK ship is blown up by a gate camp. Completely my fault but frustrating nonetheless. I lost 55mil ISK and made nowhere near that from missions and rats. If I keep that up I’ll go broke! I decide to do something different
I outfit a 2mil ISK exploration frigate, pop into a wormhole, run some relic and data sites, and take my loot back to Jita. I make 100mil ISK on my first trip. Why do missions and rats even exist? Obviously this is a much better source of income for a new player. I don’t just want to do this though. I thought EVE was all about big space ship fights, yet this hiding and hacking mini-game is paying out millions a pop. Maybe I’m wrong about what EVE is?
I outfit a 2mil ISK frigate for PvP, pop into a novice plex, and make some easy LP. No opponents show up to fight and I just sit out the timer. When an opponent does show up though, I die. Over and over and over and over.
I review the fights to see why I lost. They dictated range, they had energy neuts, they just plain had way more DPS. I look at their fits on zkillboard and see most are running 50mil to 200mil ISK fits which require skills that would take me weeks to train. I can’t copy their fits because of a lack of funds and skills. Frustrating.
I do end up landing one kill though!
Against another newbie running a 4mil ISK fit. People say that PvP isn’t about how expensive a ship is, it comes down to how you fly them. I’d say that’s true to an extent but I’ve really not been having any luck with my cheapo fits.
Side note: I thought that following allies into plexes would be fun. Turns out allies hate that because everyone in the plex receives less LP. Strange mechanic.
Join a corp is what people told me. I see an ad for a FW corp that’s recruiting. They say to sign up on their website to submit an application. I log into their website with my eve account, I add my characters, I submit an application and wait.
I’m accepted! Now I get a mail telling me I need to join up on Discord and Teamspeak soon or be purged. I download both these programs, create accounts for them, and join the required channels. Now I need to ask the mods of these channels for access. I request access and wait…again. A lot of waiting and third party account creation is required to join a corp!
After it’s all said and done though I notice a big change in low-sec. Everyone is blue and green! Areas I used to be hunted in are now “safe”. I haven’t yet got a chance to fleet up with any of them yet but it’s quite obvious if you’re not in a corp it’s you against the world. Even if I never participated in corp activities, just being in the corp has provided me with protection.
so far my most enjoyable experience with EVE has been exploration since it offers a lucrative opportunity to even a new player. PvP is harsh on new players. A single 2mil ISK exploration frigate has netted me over 300mil ISK. I’ve only gotten a single kill with my 2mil ISK attack frigate, and lost 10 others. I hope during some corp activities I can get some pointers and tips on basic fittings that won’t break the bank but also give me a fighting chance.
I wrote
has been made by a player, from materials mined or otherwise procured by a player.
Highlighted the bit you missed.
Uh, dude, if you are going broad like that, everything in every game is ‘otherwise procured by a player’.
That whooshing noise? That’s the entire point of my posts, flying over your head, while you search desperately for a nit to pick.
Such is the wisdom of the hidebound PVP forum vets, I guess. Unable to process a simple point because they are so busy looking for a detail they can shoot down.
Try again sweetie, I don’t lift.
PvE for life.
Loot drops, exploration finds, abysmal drops etc are generally the results of playing the game, in the same class as minerals obtained through playing the game.
Well then that’s awesome, isn’t it? It means we can make high sec 100% combat free, and leave null sec to farm and mine and produce trillions in ISK and materiel, and leave everything else the way it is now. Then everyone is happy, the carebears, the miners, the alliances… because we all got what we want and yet every single action taken in EVE is PVP, so the PVPers, they’re the happiest of all!
(PS: you also missed the concept of 'forum PVP’ers)
Only if you want Goons to control the economy, because there’s a goodly chance that is what would happen when they take advantage of a combat free area of the game to monopolise industry and the markets
(PS: you also missed the concept of 'forum PVP’ers)
I know. 
They need to fine tune it to the grey area between, safe isnt better than dangerous but either is better than just constantly dying and bing picked on.
Everyone knows very well that skillpoints also dont mean much if you dont know the game, hell years ago i wardecked a corp with a brand new toon - and they really did hate my kestrel; i recall the ceo being real p####d off and i died a few times. but, had i done it with all the logi and the high sp toon it would have been utterly oppresive and they likely wouldnt have even tried to kill me and so there we have it; the difference between abusing a mechanic and way outclassing your foe and something more on their level that they can engage with.
I would say thank you for sharing this, but it would be an understatement.
CCP* eve has loads of ways you can integrate but perhaps they are not obvious ways and little is done to point them out.
EvE is easy youtube video for pvp, learn how to slingshot and spiral
It’s too late for Nuuri I am afraid.
Is going full Balos better or worse than going full Salvos?