This is not a matter of opinion. This is a matter of doing it properly and see what happens, as opposed to theorising about it. Again, I’m not theorising here, which is what you appear to be doing. I’m talking about what happens in practice from personal, direct, first hand experience. What do you think is it that would happen if it wasn’t effective as you say, and how much are you willing to bet against me saying that what happens in practice is something else?
Moreover, KRs are just one technique, not the only one available. This isn’t intended to be a treaty about everything AG, just a series of posts to illustrate how to properly use one of the tools available for that, because it’s a particularly underrated and underused one, not because it’s the only one. You may need to use it in combination with other techniques to make the most of them.
Just a couple would be good enough if I have that available every day for a price I’d be willing to pay.
That you’re a ganker and the way KRs are used against you doesn’t make much of a difference to you, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be effective if used properly. Actually, that’s precisely why I posted this, because KRs are typically not used properly…
If anything, your experience would prove that these posts might be useful, not that KRs cannot be effective…
If ganking is defined as “non-consensual PvP” and the activation of the killright is not subject to approval of the victim… Wouldn’t that make the activation of a killright a form of ganking?
LOL. That’s not what ganking means, but yes, using a KR to kill someone can be ganking too, of course, not because of the KR, but because of the way the killing is done.
Ok. Even that I said I wont, I`ll take the bait. Never not take the bait.
You are twisting my words, as I did not say KR them self cannot be effective (they are, ganker lose a ship and some time), but I said they are not an effective anti-ganking technique and that you mislead ppl in thinking they are.
Please allow me to explain to you why you actually took the effort to post such a long, well documented and accurate post, as it seems that even you don`t realize why, at least not consciously:
Looking at your killboard, I see that you are an elite anti-ganking pvper. You have a very green killboard with very little loses. Most of your kills are done by using KR against gankers.
Unfortunately, you are able to score only 2-3 kills / day which it gives you the feeling of ineffectiveness (sic!) against ganking phenomena.
Judging by your statement when I asked if 30 KRs stream available to you would be good
I suppose you are frustrated with your killboard, because ppl are not as elite as you and improperly use the KR mechanics.
If your intention with the post was just to inform ppl without any personal gain, the normal response to my
would be to ask what do I think will it be effective. You could have tricked my ego in giving you some good insights. Unfortunately, your ego stayed in the way.
From all this, I conclude that your subconscious intentions with the post is to “present” yourself as an expert in anti-ganking and lure/mislead ppl into making their KR available to you for low prices, so you can bolster your green killboard even more.
p.s.
It is my assessment and it is irrelevant if you do not agree with it.
If your AG ego will allow it, take my advice and unban all gankers from AG channels and even more, actively invite them in … some of them may teach you how to be effective.
No worries. You’re doing it in a constructive way, so I won’t make fun of that.
Fair enough, but I expressed it differently for brevity only, not because I was twisting your words in any way. I was referring to the same you were referring to, i.e. I stand by what I said if you replace where I merely said “effective” with “effective anti-ganking technique” and I also maintain that I’m not misleading anyone when I say that.
Looking at my KB you can only see what I posted there or what the other players posted themselves.
I don’t post my kills unless made with a KR I had previously asked for (so the KR owner can verify how it was used). That’s why you can see kills made with KRs there. Even kills made with public KRs you won’t be able to see unless the other player posted it himself.
And you would need to check the KB of my alt too (same corp), not sure if you did that.
Not sure what you mean, but even if I posted all the kills, pretending you may measure how effective or ineffective I am by counting how many I get every day would be wrong.
Would you consider a ganker going afk, logging off, or going elsewhere when I’m camping him an indication of me being effective or ineffective? And how many kills do you think I may get when that happens?
I’m not frustrated in any way, neither with my killboard or lack thereof, nor because of how elite other players are or aren’t. The reason I made this series of posts about KRs is simply that another player suggested in another thread that I should do it and it seemed a good idea to me.
I’m not sure what the ego of any of us has to do with this… The sole reason I didn’t ask is because it was pretty clear to me already what you meant by being “effective” and that everything you were saying was based on the false premise that you think it means something different to me…
It didn’t occur to me to ask you for any insights because you were showing a misunderstanding of what being effective means to me in the first place. Had you shown you were aware it means to me the same that it means to you and still maintained that I might be missing something, then yes, I would have been curious what could I be missing and would have asked…
Moreover, if this wasn’t some rhetorical argument, and you do really think you know something I could be missing (other than thinking being “effective” means to you something different than it means to me), then yes, I’d like to know, of course…
Haha. Good one. I do honestly appreciate you taking the effort to say this in a constructive way like you did, but no, you’re wrong, sorry, LOL.
I send a mail to victims of previous ganks when I’d like them to make their KRs available to me. That mail has some carefully written useful information that also tells them how to properly use their KRs if they don’t want to make them available to me. I’m considering adding to the mail a link to these posts in the future, and that could very well have the side effect of improving my credibility if they happen to check it, but that’s by no means the intent of this thread, LOL.
This just proves how mistaken you’re about me. One of the things I’m known for amongst both gankers and anti-gankers is precisely being strongly against banning gankers from the AG channel, for the reason you said and for other reasons you didn’t say…
Let me add some experience with KRs of gankers. Unless you actively approach victims to give you their KRs for cheap, cheap public rights are scarce, and you usually do the ganker a favor in clearing them, else he would have to clear it himself.
This only if the ganker needs a higher sec status (e.g. for camping gates and stations), KRs are useless on big groups with all -10 gank chars.
I did “stalk” gate campers quite a while, and their successful ganks are far between, so a few add. 15min downtimes from suspect timers don’t make a difference to their business.
You can’t effectively prevent any ganks with KR activation because you don’t know in advance when a gank attempt will happen.
This is wrong. IME, Tornado gankers in particular rarely sit at a gate waiting for a victim to appear, in which case you do definitely know a gank is about to happen when they warp to gate. And if they did sit at the gate, then there would be other things you might do to make them not want to, such as bumping them, because they need to sit still to avoid missing a shot to bad tracking…
Also, activating a KR when the ganker doesn’t expect, after he has been actively looking for a suitable target for a while, even if it doesn’t qualify as preventing a gank about to happen, is disruptive too, especially if you have more KRs that you may use at any moment without the ganker knowing when or even whether you’re gonna do it again…
Not do that in a ship he may gank, or fly it in a way that makes it impractical to be ganked, or alternatively do it in a ship not worth ganking that you’re willing to replace as many times as needed in exchange for the KRs you’d get that would make doing that profitable even…
But you aren’t doing this KR activation for profit, right? You are doing it for fun. Although the ganker may be thinking about popping a juicy loot piñata, it makes no sense to me that he wouldn’t naturally take an interest in you after one or two KR counter-ganks. Hunting nosy meddlers should be fun too, similar to your anti-ganking.
Perhaps it is a question of psychology. If ganking ventures and convetors is fun (I think it is, irrespective of making a profit), then wouldn’t it also be fun to explode that famous anti-ganker from the forums?
Right. I was referring to the fact that using disposable ships that you’re willing to replace as many times as needed does not imply you have to do that at a loss.
But FWIW, the whole AG thing I do, of which KRs are just one of the tools, is profitable for me. Not anywhere near as profitable as suicide ganking flying pinatas, of course, but profitable nonetheless, partly because of other things that happen and I come across while doing it and that I would miss if I was doing something else instead.
Of course. And in fact I’m wanted, badly. I could very well be ganked right after posting this, or any other time in the near future, which is fine. It’s all part of the fun.
The gankers I know from Perimeter/Jita/Sobaski/Urlen are actually either hugging the gate for hours scanning ships passing by, or sitting in tether with few or none cheap KRs, warping down to the target and gank. I did activate a lot of cheap KRs on the famous Honsin gang in Perimeter, but it was rarely more than one “layer”.
Scaring them away with bumping is an option of course. But you know my goal in this ganker-AG game was different, so I often left KRs untouched. At least I managed to remove all 2-account gankers from the Jita area for a while.
As there are tips how to use KRs effectively against gankers there are tips how to avoid KRs disrupting your gameplay as a ganker.
KRs never affected me in any way. If some white knight idiot pays 20/30 even 50mil to oneshot my thrasher at Jita it is a win for me - I get rid of killright and I lose nothing since while I am doing highsec ganking with my main I am usually playing at least one alt and doing something else, mostly explorattion in null. Thereforethe 15min suspect/criminal timer does not affect me and the cost of the lost gank ship neither.
And most of the time I am able to dock before I am killed. Either the attacker is stupid enough not to know I can dock up if he doesn’t oneshot me or he won’t manage to even fire after KR activation (in fact it requires quite a profficiency to overcome all that UI to do it as fast as possible - that is something you might want to add into your tutorial @Knowledgeminer ).
When I want to do pve or god-forbid mining I do it in lowsec or nullsec, in these areas KRs are pointless if anything it makes me look badass and deters small fish of fighting me.
If I do some PvE in highsec like anomalies I am using combat ship and I am ready to take the fight. In a three months only one player activated my KR in this situation and I was flying PvP fitted Sunesis. Because the attacked had Stratios and he attacked from range with sentries I docked and reshipped for Stratios as well, but the attacker ran away when he saw me on dscan. Maybe I was just doing it in wrong part of highsec where are no players with balls…
I had over 500 killrights (if I count all my alts) during the time I got back to EVE (it was June I think). Did not lost anything more than 2mil worth Thrasher to kill rights. I simply don’t allow AGs to use them effectively at all.
So here are my tips for any (wannabe) gankers how to handle killrights.
If they are given to specific person like @Knowledgeminer set a standing to this guy - I use neutral standing for AGs and alike. This is basically the best KR owners can do - it is really simple to track specific persons.
Now if you know there is lowly AG with KR on you, either:
ignore him completely, orbit citadel to avoid bumping and do as usual, he can’t do anything more than an AG without KR could. Or just stay close to station so you can dock or a gate so you can jump.
Refit your gank ship into PvP ship and bait him, let him bump you at citadel or even stay at gate and fight him there if you are confident enough. But generally you want to avoid randoms interfering. It should be the gank ship otherwise he will not take the bait unless he is stupid.
Use stabbed or speed-fitted pirate ship or industrial ship to lure the KR activation and then escape and suicide to clear KR.
Additional tips:
If you have to go afk or quit and the AG with KRs is in your system don’t log off. At least stay docked so he wastes time waiting for you (and let him believe he is disrupting your gameplay if he is stupid enough to think that) or even orbit 500m citadel to keep tether and avoid bumping. While it is probably possible to bump orbiting ship like that, nobody was able to do it against me yet and I will congratulate anyone who will succeed.
If it is public to all:
If it is cheap for your standards (personally anything over 100k is above I am willing to pay myself, I rather undock with gank ship and risk it) than use your alt or a friend to activate it and kill yourself. If you are not multiboxing and you have no friends (available) then fly into major trade hubs with a shuttle or rookie ship (or even better if you are already ganking there just undock) it usually takes just a few minutes before someone activates it just for lulz. When that happen, find a nearest Emerging Conduit or Pirate Den/Refuge or Drone Gathering/Assembly without players in them and suicide there, alternatively find NPC miners, Sleepers and shoot them, other alternatives are static combat beacons, roaming triglavians or visiting lowsec belt/site if there is lowsec nearby (case of Uedama).
If it is expensive to your standard then either use stabbed/speed-fitted pirate or industrial ship and fly around, someone will usually activate it sooner or later. If it is not working in reasonable time and you want to get rid of that KR consider autopiloting with insured t1 (industrial) ship while you are afk/sleep, just make sure your pod is clean. Add some crap items as a bonus or double wrapped package to increase likelihook of someone activating it But this goes agaisnt my principles of never giving kill to anyone. Or you know… just ignore it. Make sure you don’t lose your ship or if you do it is not a loss for you. If you are ganking in destroyer then losing the ship is not a big deal as the killright price will be always higher than your ship cost. If it is cruiser or battlecruiser you should just not lose your ship. You cannot be oneshoted by single ship in cruiser or battlecruiser so as long as you stick close to station or gate you should never die. Watch out for bumping, in Jita especially there are places where you cannot be bumped at all and even if you get bumped you can still dock while flying. The only possible way of losing gank ship if you avoid bumping is if the AG has instalock and enough dps on opposite gate and activates KR on you when you sit on gate which so far never happened to me but I don’t really sit at gate…
If the killright is not public nor given to specific corporation or character. These are most dangerous. It happened to me (or rather my friend, I was paying attention) just once and I am sure it have to take quite a lot of preparation, scouting and generally effort, but these killrights are most potent. Simply put, do not lose focus and attention just because you have no public killrights, if done properly it will take only a few seconds to activate such killright on you without the owner be present in the system. So do not fly expensive ships not meant for fighting back if you have any (unactivated) killright. If you want then proceed as if you were in wardec, use scout or travel fit and stick to the personal deadspace like escalations and missions (if for some reason you want to do it in highsec and not low or null).
Additional tips:
Use ganking-only alts you will avoid all the issues with KRs. Use more of them so in worst case after accumulating too many of them you can switch character for a month. IF you want to gank with your main as I do and then do other stuff like PvE or mining, I will say it again, better do it in lowsec or nullsec - in these areas you have much more clarity about the possible threats than in highsec.
Do not give anyone kills. Not even empty shuttle or a pod. If someone activated KR on you and unsuccessfully tried to kill you, after docking always wait the timer on limited engagement (well unless you using KR to suspect baiting and wantto fight back) before suiciding to alt or npcs otherwise the kill mail goes to that idiot who paid it.
Embrace the Kill Rights! Do not fear them but collect them, throw also some of your own alt KRs into the mix so when some AG pays for your KR to “anti-ganking purposes” you profit on this.
He wasn’t referring to the KR activation process itself. He’s talking about the KR owner making the KR available to someone else right before it’s going to be activated, so the ganker doesn’t know who’s going to activate it and hence cannot notice him in local or in space until right before it happens.
EDIT: Which is something that might be worth adding to one of the posts at the beginning.
