I failed the trust of High Lady trying to do the right

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
62

I am in no way in leadership… but all signs point to CVA upholding scripture. You can’t fly in much of CVA controlled space without seeing scripture broadcast in local and in depots displaying the holy word. It was the same in lower domain when CVA had to evacuate there. Of course the enemies of the empire and CVA destroy those structures to weaken morale whenever they can.

But that is simple observation. Most of the signatories of the articles you speak of have abandoned Providence. While I don’t doubt CVA’s intentions regarding the Empire, I would doubt some sections are viewed as binding.

For example:
“The Providence Theological Institute as an independent body shall be tasked with the voluntary religious formation of capsuleers and free residents and the promotion of the faith among the free population.
It shall advise the Magistrate and the Empyrean Council on matters of faith.
It is granted a seat on the Empyrean Council.
To these ends it shall consult regularly with the Imperial Pharmacy.”

Given how Vaari and the Imperial Pharmacy have betrayed Providence, his own alliance and the Empire… I’d wager nobody will be consulting his corporation about ANYTHING in Providence. But I can’t view that as CVA breaking with the recomendations of the Conclave… but rather Vaari doing so.

I’d also guess the following would be considered voided by the fact that several holder alliance abandoned (or in the case of the Yulai Federation and Silent Infinity, actively betrayed) Providence:

“The Greater Providence Region will not, except under direct guidance at a later date, attempt to create any new Holders, Holderships, Esteemed Houses, or any other method by which an individual lays permanent, ancestral claim to land.”

The holding alliances are not the same as they once were. Those who remained loyal to the empire and defended Providence kept their status. Those who abandoned Providence lost it. Newer alliances who fought gallantly in the defense and re-claiming of Providence were elevated to holder status by the other holders.

63

Your knowledge of Amarrian terms reflects badly on attempting to convince me CVA is a bastion of the faith.

The term has nothing to do with the colliqual term Holder Alliances but to do with new Holder Lords and Ladies owning the space in their right as Amarrian Nobles.

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64

I would like to know how I, Lord Vaari should have defended Providence against PL when I was already KOS to Providence long before invasion happened. Some alliances enforced the KOS, some did not.

However it was impossible situation for me, since I could not know if blues attack me or not had I stayed.

65

You are talking about events that I have no direct knowledge of… but it seems like their stays in CVA ended in destruction by CVA ships. It is hard for me to look at that and not think that some part of that punishment from the CVA authorities wasn’t due to their anti-empire actions you talked about. Neither was in CVA for such a period of time as to suggest they were allowed to remain in CVA much past their offenses.

As for the Conclave… I believe it was the intention (one pushed for by non-CVA holders in Providence) that while Coalition leadership would give judgement, carrying out the punishment was something each alliance was intended to do. It was not viewed as acceptable for CVA to destroy Invictus or Severence or Silent Infinity pilots for their wrongdoing… those alliances were supposed to uphold that role.

While the “blood” incident happened before my arrival… I did witness Vaari’s crimes and the unwillingness of Silent Infinity to police their own. In large part the Conclave’s dictates weakened CVA’s ability to police the faith of other alliances in Providence. But I feel like it is dishonest to lay the blame for such things at CVA’s feet. The Empyrean Council is simply not CVA. They are representative of all holders in Providence. The Conclave’s suggestions in part robbed CVA of the ability to police other holder alliances easily… barring complete expulsion from Providence. In the end they got to that point with Vaari and Silent Infinity. But it took years.

I’d submit that CVA did drive out CVA members you’ve shown evidence about… but was unable to convince other holders to do the same. While that might be a failure in diplomacy or leadership, I have trouble seeing it as a failure in faith… at least not on CVA’s part.

66

And I’d submit I was there, personally, and unhappily having my ear twisted by Maximillian especially. I’ve known him for many years, and he’s been a contrarian git for that time. It was worse to find out he was a heretic. I suffered him in fleets, suffered the rants and tirades and was glad when finally he was purged for being a general faecal brained pilot undermining fleet commanders. And I suffered hearing the complaints about the purge from the horse’s mouth afterwards.

You should have admitted at the start you knew nothing rather then making assertions I very well am privy to the truth of. You have been here speaking in an authoritative tone, but have no part in Leadership.

Now you are right CVA cannot bully other Holder alliances around, but it can impose rules. Rules such as the former prohibition against carrier ratting in providence, or rules regarding not shooting folk who are neutral to the coalition, rules that were expected to be followed regardless of Alliance tag. The Conclave document were rules also. Why is it the rules regarding points of faith and slave ownership should not be enforced by a supposed faithful alliance as the rules against capital ratting and downing neutrals?

Now you are right all Holder Alliances were involved with the Empyrean Council, but ultimate arbitrator and enforcer of all rules, and negotiator of last resort, always has and always will be CVA. It is CVA, presumably, that claims to be Faithful and Loyal. If CVA, given your words in this thread, wish to maintain they are such I will judge them as an organisation to such standards. Standards that include their commitment to the faith and upholding the principles the executive signed up for.

Ah, but I am in Goonswarm and no longer Pentag Blade, I too gave abandoned the region you might claim. And you would be right, I claim not to be without weakness and sin. Attempting to rekindle the light of Faith beyond lipservice for the better part of two years while flying under CVA’s banner put a massive dampner on my motivation for the region, Like Cardinals Graelyn and Kahar Dex before, I too hit a wall. A wall of nonchalant shrugs before the Light of Faith.

But it must be pointed out about Goonswarm! Yes, but Goonswarm, outside of mocking hurf and blurf surrounding an incursion of boredom to providence, is not an organisation of real loyalists to the Imperial Throne. It takes all pilots of any faith or none. It makes no claims, lives on no plaudits beyond that which it chooses. I can be a man of Faith, spreading God’s word to those that listen here while keeping my skills sharp.

Oganisations must be set to standards surrounding the entire organisation, just as we judge individuals by the individual.

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67

You spoke against CVA publicly and in support of PL.

Several of the alliances which listened to you most either didn’t attempt to defend their space or actually gave their assets and stations to the invaders.

You convinced your alliance to flee providence but not give the defensive assets that were entrusted to them to those willing to defend against the invaders. Your words led to an abdictation of duty of an entire holder alliance.

You thus aided the invaders. You only ever have had the power of words… you didn’t ever really enter a ship to fight in defense of any of you ideals. You just talked. And you used that to aid the enemy. You didn’t rally people against the invaders… you rallied them against those recognized by the Empress as fighting for the Amarr Empire instead.

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I CVA’s eyes I am the enemy. Xhjfx the Terrible have even said few times that my kos is permanent and cannot be lifted ever so CVA has played its strongest card against me. In light of that, no amount of heroic struggle against PL while evading CVA would done to me any good, since permanent kos is permanent kos.

69

I don’t believe I ever spoke as an authority. If I did I apologize.

I simply asked for examples and evidence.

So far the evidence shows that those in CVA who you gave as examples of those who were breaking the rules of the conclave were kicked out of CVA with prejudice (having ships blown up by CVA).

Those who were not in CVA were not treated similarly. Blood and Vaari as examples of such.

You can speak to the reasons for the actions as opposed to the actions themselves… and I cannot. But I can look at the actions and observe they seem to be reasonable for a faithful and loyal group following the Amarr Empire.

Perhaps they were not carried out with the speed and zeal that would have been ideal. Perhaps CVA should have ignored the restrictions on their policing of other alliances and purged the problems within them (like Vaari) at first sign of trouble. But the actions taken… while perhaps lacking in alacrity… do seem to be the ones one would expect of a loyal organization.

70

It’s not supposed to be about you. When you dedicate yourself to the protection and service of a region, you aren’t supposed to take action only if it would “do you good”. You are supposed to uphold your honor and do your duty. There are responsibilities that come with those titles you like to collect and flout. You abandoned them because doing so was in your best interest.

What you did was exploit Providence, betray it, then ran away, taking the profits you made with you as you fled.

71

I have not ran away. If you have noticed, Im upholding my duties by trying to get Xhjfx the Herald of Miasma removed from CVA. Perhaps after this Providence can heal from this deep corruption this traitorous thing has brought.

72

Or if you consider me leaving just as PL invasion happening, you should have seen CVA evactuation during AAA Invasion. Those stalwart hawks of Providence left so quickly that I was not even aware that Providence is abandoned until AAA showed up.

It is very easy to find traitors when you narrow you wievpoints to fit into your pre decided criterias.

One thing is certain. Xhjfx the Tyrant of Eternal Oblivion is current de facto ruler of CVA and he has brought terrible curse upon the alliance and to the region.

73

We are going around in circles. You admit to not having personal knowledge of the events. I did and have provided the context of what happened… And yet you continue to make an assumption based on your cursory research, ignoring the context provided, and assert it as a clear interpretation as if that proves anything.

You have also ignored where I highlighted the issues around annointed Clergy finding a lack of calling for the faith. You have also ignored where I highlighted the tolerance of a CVA member promoting engaging in carnal and temporal sins as a way of exploring faith, a matter that was enough to cause members of the leadership of PIE and SFRIM to post on CVA’s own forums in alarm at such obvious heresies. Instead you flog a dead horse revolving around two individuals that clearly were not kicked because they said something heretical, no, they were rapidly and efficiently removed after they toed the line with antagonising fleet commanders and alliance officers too far with their opinions on how things should be run. If it was about heresy, they woukd have been dealt with during, or swiftly after, the act but clearly Maximillian’s forced apology was enough. But the tirade of explitives over open comms during a fleet and the undermining of authority? Almost Instant and rapid judgement. I simply ask the faith be given the same standards.

As an aside, Lord Vaari is no ally of mine so you cannot dangle that one against me. Why his alliance protected him is beyond me, other alliances have complied fully with requests to remove individuals so it seems more a matter of politics than faith, which begs the question what else was going on?

Finally, what evidence have you presented in the opposite, without the cursory research at a glance devoid of context? The Empress’ remarks, a salute to how CVA once was. Sadly, it’s true, the Throne cannot be expected to be privy to the goings on with every historical alliance. Aaand aside from claims of scripture in local that’s about it.

Lord Vaari is wrong that the issue is one person in leadership. The issue is, outside of brave few, no one seriously cares about the Faith in CVA. Operation Deliverance is just tired tradition that many don’t understand. No one wants to walk among the faithful that are here, active, promoting God’s word outside of some fancy parade for ego’s sake.

This was true when Cardinal Graelyn tried to refire the faith and failed, it was true on the several occassions Cardinal Dex tried, and was true when I tried. Tell me, when was the last congregation of faithful pilots gathered within Providence, lead by a clergyman or woman in prayer and which of the faithful active here were invited? You cannot breed faith alone in a vaccum.

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74

Could U’K do us all a favor and take Provi?

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75

Let me try this differently. What result that did not happen would you have liked to see happen instead?

The first example you gave was kicked out of CVA and had his ship destroyed on the way out.
The second example you gave was kicked out of CVA and had his ship destroyed on the way out.

The third example wasn’t CVA and was defended by non-CVA holders.

You feel faith is lacking. You’ve referenced others who feel the same I get that. But I see the scripture displayed all over Providence. I see proclamations of faith broadcast when CVA wins victories. I see the originator of CVA in com channels firing up the line members for battle.

What tangible failings are you talking about? Is it the speed of punishment for wrongdoers? Is it the fact CVA isn’t purging wrongdoers like Vaari from other alliances? Are the displays of faith not loud enough?

What action is lacking?

76

Well, this derailed quickly.

Also, amen to what Pilot Vess said.

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77

That would require a competency and asset amount so far above and beyond their capabilities it’s not even funny.

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78

A man commits murder. Later, he steals something and while the police attempt to apprehend him, he runs, unarmed, and is shot and killed.

This does not mean the authorities have executed him for murder.

You say ‘they did bad things. Later, they got kicked out, why isn’t this good enough for you?’ I believe the necessary step you are missing is that the specific actions Utari brings up were never punished, only later actions that were completely unrelated to the question of loyalty to Amarr.

Rather, Utari’s specifically telling you ‘this disloyalty was never an issue for CVA. The only issue was that they did things against CVA.’ And to that, you say:

But allowing that disloyalty and direct insult to the Empress to go unpunished… that doesn’t factor into your considerations? You can’t look at the time elapsed between ‘event’ and ‘punishment’ and decide whether or not that’s a reasonable window in which to establish whether disloyalty is or isn’t being given tacit approval?

I make no secret of my opinion of the Empire, but if a group is going to claim to be loyal to a specific faction or goal, and then allow its members to act against that stated position of loyalty without disciplinary action as a direct result of that disloyal act, that casts that claim into serious doubt.

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79

I can dream can’t I? Heh, talwars and thrashers flooding Provi, could you imagine?

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80

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s being considered at the moment.

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