I regret to inform that we still don't die enough

Communications Center General Discussion
722

No, EVE is fundamentally still a PvP game. It always has been. Just because some customers come in and start claiming that it no longer is doesn’t change this, unless CCP adjusts their business model, and they haven’t. Let me paint a picture for you:

You open a burger place. In the beginning, everything is great. People come in, buy your burgers and fries, and enjoy their food. After a while, you notice that some people come in and don’t buy anything, but go directly to the little pump machine that dispenses ketchup into those little paper cups to dip fries into. They pump a few of those paper cups and leave.

The amount of people who are coming in to take ketchup starts growing. Some people don’t even use the little paper cups anymore—they just put their mouths under the dispenser, pump out a mouthful of ketchup, and leave. You and the regular patrons who are there for the burgers just watch in amazement as it happens. Soon, you start hearing people in town refer to your burger joint as “that ketchup place” and start hearing complaints about how the machine doesn’t dispense enough ketchup, how the people eating burgers are interfering with lawful free ketchup consumption by making you cook burgers instead of refilling the ketchup dispenser in a timely manner, and how the smell of food cooking is interfering with their appetite for ketchup. They start demanding that you stop cooking burgers, and only serve ketchup. Even after you add another ketchup dispenser to try to appease the crowds through an amicable, inclusionary approach, they start getting angrier and more demanding.

You never fundamentally changed your business model. You’re still running a burger place, even if 90% of the patrons are there only for the free ketchup dispenser. Can anyone say that your restaurant is no longer a burger place? Are the people consuming your actual food suffering from narrow-scoped, biased postures because they are trying to defend a decaying dining model that they’ve chosen to adopt? Will you eventually make an announcement that your restaurant is not a burger place anymore, just because statistically it no longer is?

Are you going to shut down your kitchen and replace the entire dining area with an array of ketchup dispensers for these people to suck on?

4 Likes
723

I think the real problem with the game is that it used to take 10mins to get to the burger llace. The burgers used to cost £5 and it only costed about £1.50 in petrol to get there.

Now it takes about 30mins to get there, the burgers cost about £50 and it costs £10 in petrol to get there.

The arguing over burgers or ketchup are just a symptom of the increased prices and travelling time.

724

No, the burgers still cost the same amount of money that they did 20 years ago. In fact, when adjusted for inflation, they cost considerably less.

725

Then factor in the means and time to get them, are they even worth it? No wonder people want free ketchup XD

726

That’s not the point of my allegory though. Those external factors aren’t the restaurant owner’s direct concern.

Tell me, if enough strangers start saying that the house you own doesn’t belong to you anymore, but belongs to some random person (let’s call him John McBoober), is it John McBoober’s house now? Should you move out?

727

What sort of analogy is that? That’s a rigged question XD

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728

You’re concentrating on the symptoms, not the cause. People are arguing pointing fingers when the actual problem is time and cost, which affects everyone.

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729

No, it really isn’t.

The whole point of this is to make people understand that just because people fall into some kind of majority, doesn’t mean that they automatically get to decide things for everyone else. That’s called tyranny of the majority, and societies have checks in place to prevent this sort of abuse.

I am saying that just because the majority of the people who play this game claim that it’s no longer a PvP game doesn’t make them correct, because CCP is still fundamentally developing this game as a PvP game, and what random people think (even if there’s a lot of them) doesn’t change this fact.

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730

That’s true yeah sorry. I guess i derailed it.

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731

if you own a business ALL factors relating to your sales are a direct concern.
10 years ago buying and selling online was a minor thing, store fronts could compete - Now more and more businesses are moving online because demand is so much higher.
Where I live we used to have 4 specialist computer shops, the last remaining is closing on Friday and will be an online store. The other 3 closed over the last 2 years.

In business you need to be able to keep ahead of the competition by offering your products in a way that encourages customers to purchase. CCP fell behind the curve and if they don’t take the hard steps to change things - Eve will not recover. I’m not saying Eve is dying, simply that it has had its day as a crowd pleaser without some serious change.

For the first time in a few years I had some excitement thrust upon me while running a lvl 4 mission. A guy in a battleship warped in and tried to steal the mission object (the Damsel). My first instinct was to just leave (local spiked by 6 as he landed), thankfully I didn’t listen to it and instead engaged the would be usurper. Was a bit of fun in an otherwise boring afternoon.
Sadly my mission boat doesn’t have a scram fit so he was able to just warp off once he realised I wasn’t just going to let him do his thing and he risked dying.

732

Personally I think anyone saying this is not a pvp game has no idea what they are talking about. When I determine what something is I have to take into account ALL of the attributes of it. I cannot just ignore the parts I don’t like and use other aspects of it to determine what it is.

PVP is what drives the economy. if this wasn’t the case then manufacturers ingame wouldn’t make any isk and industry would be impossible because there is no demand.

1 Like
733

Hmmm, lets look at this statement a little closer.
Nerfed resistances on everything. Discourages pvp.
Increased prices on everything battleship and above. Discourages pvp.
Wardec changes. Discourages PVP. You your self pointed this out in a post recently (posting on non war eligible chars on the forums), you can avoid conflict by taking a safer avenue.

Most recently, CCP has gone out of its way to encourage “wealth building” as a legit play style again. Discourages pvp because, who wants to risk the wealth they’ve accrued when there really is no reason to.

The game is built and designed around “safety” and “wealth gathering”.

Everyone has as much safety as they are prepared to put in place, from the mega groups in nul to miners and industrialists to mission runners and gankers - Risk is calculated and can be balanced to suit what you want to achieve.

So NO they are not developing a PVP game and haven’t for the last 5 or 6 years.

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734

Just because some people are refusing to engage in PvP, doesn’t make it not a PvP game. That was her whole point.

Learn to EVE kthx.

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735

No. Why? How? Resistances have nothing to do with PvP aversion. This is some kind of convoluted “I can die quicker so I won’t fight” logic, but it doesn’t really work because you can make your opponent die quicker too. The balance is still intact. Would you be any less averse to playing a game of Chess with someone if both players start with one less Rook, because you think it gives you specifically a higher chance of loss?

The opposite also holds true.

High prices discourage PvP only if you view EVE as some kind of multiplayer arena/deathmatch game. If you’re the kind of player who likes fitting 20 of the same ship and losing them all in a weekend, sure. For a player like me, high prices ensure my PvP makes a profit.

Yes, I agree with this. CCP has been consistently caving to anti-PvP demands for about a decade now. They’re doing this because they’re trying to appease a player demographic that’s becoming more extremist in their demands every year.

Still, CCP haven’t re-branded their game as a PvE experience with an optional PvP component. While many of the original ways of engaging other players have been removed, you can still attack anyone, anywhere. Until this is changed, the game is still a PvP title on a fundamental level.

1 Like
736

Gotta love a response that doesn’t in any way respond to a post.

Lets switch your statement a bit.
People refusing to engage in PVP because there is nothing to gain, doesn’t make it not a pvp game.
Ahhh but it does limit how, where and WHY people PVP. When wealth gathering, for example, is a players or groups primary goal - PVP is secondary and usually only carried out to ensure the safety of the overall goal.

Learn how Eve works - and has for many years.

NB; I mean sure, if flying small ships preying on defenceless ships is your thing, Eve is a great PVP game and great for you but that isn’t for everyone

737

The whole reason you gather wealth is so that you can afford to burn in space :smiley:

My and her point, still stands.

Learn to EVE kthx.

1 Like
738

Yet that is an actual barrier to people wanting to pvp, go figure…

All CCP did by nerfing resists was ensure that only certain ship types would be flown, while everything else lost value. Meaning certain ships are always a better choice than others - CCP “balanced” pvp straight into “stagnency”.

At a very basic, limited and rare level.
PVP is a secondary consideration both in development and for the majority of players.

NB; the first ad I ever saw for EVE was touting it as an economic, wealth building sim. Not a pvp game.

Older players with trillions of isk DIDN’T set out to make that isk to PVP, they did it because that was the goal of the game. The same way the game is played by the majority today. Building wealth is why you login, not to see how much isk you can lose but how much you can make.

So called “Dedicated pvp’rs” who buy plex to fund their pvp and never engage in pve are a rare breed, even rarer than those who still believe CCP can do no wrong when it comes to development.

2 Likes
739

I don’t know a single PvPer who thinks that way, so this leads me to conclude that this is a sentiment expressed by non-PvP players who are looking for another way to justify their aversion to PvP by looking for excuses to not engage in that aspect of the game.

That’s because you don’t need to develop “content” for a 100% player-driven mechanic. The ability to fight other players merely needs to exist, and if it does, it doesn’t require much further input from the developer’s side. It’s not like adding new missions to the game.

Anyway, if the game isn’t a PvP game, and the entire point is to endlessly grind for money, they should add a PvP flag to the game (or remove it entirely) and re-brand it as a PvE title.

1 Like
740

Of course it is a PVP game… I wanted to make a point on the fact that this PVP game has not much PVP.
As I said, statistics are useless for the case, as people will insist about the game’s nature, ignoring them.

Like a sports car in Manhattan. It is indeed a sportscar but barely functions as such.

So, on the contrary: Those who do know this game, will surely agree that it fails on being a PVP game.

741

Wow, I guess Destiny wins the “worst analogy of the year” award. Do notice how the PvE crowd (not the burger/PvP crowd) is portrayed as freeloaders with no manners sucking a condiment. It’s not often you see someone’s bias so clearly displayed.

Instead, let’s use an actually accurate analogy:

A place opens up, it’s called the “Buster Burger Barn”. They advertise “Busters: the Best Burger in the Business!”. All customers pay $10 at the door. When they enter, there’s a very nice salad bar right in from of them, with plates, cutlery, take-out boxes etc. Sign says “If you don’t want a burger, try a salad! Make it any way you like!”.

Strangely, the sign pointing to “Burgers” leads you into a long, wandering maze. You spent a lot of time working your way through the odd little maze, and at the end, you come to a burger ordering window. You start to order your burger, but the person asks “Where’s your plate? No plate, no burger!”. You look around, there are no plates. In fact the only place you can see with plates is people starting to load up their salads on their plates.

You’re hungry, you want a burger. You say “f&*k it”, walk over and grab a plate from one of the people in the salad line. Some of them get angry, some of the smaller ones cry, but most of them just shrug and walk back to the beginning of the line (easy for them since there’s no maze) and get another plate. You hand over your plate. Sometimes you get a decent burger back. Sometimes you get a soggy burger. Sometimes you get no burger at all.

The place makes a bit of news from time to time, either from angry salad lovers, or the burger types fighting over a plate. Eventually someone sits down to interview the owner, and asks why the “Buster Burger Barn” makes it so much harder to get a burger than a salad.

Here’s what the owner says:
“Any place can make a burger, get’em anywhere. We aren’t selling burgers. We’re selling salads. The burger ads are the hook we use to get people in the door, but marketing shows that way more people want salads than burgers. The burger ads and maze is just there to make sure we keep getting in the news, because that brings more people in. And as for the people who actually think they’re getting the best burger in the business? While ignoring the evidence that’s right in their face every day? Well, you know the marketing saying… there’s one of those born every minute.”

At any rate, Xucca is asking for ideas on how destruction/PvP can be increased, and of course the PvP crowd for reasons of their own, does whatever they can to derail that notion and turn the thread to trolling, or ganking, or whatever other issue they can. I do notice they’re surprisingly empty of ideas to discuss about adding more PvP/destruction to the game.

I’ll tackle that in a separate message since they’ll want to bark up a storm about both posts, I expect.