I regret to inform that we still don't die enough

No it isn’t. The game is fundamentaly a wealth gathering sim. If the game was about burning “your wealth”, it would have exactly NO meaning, no goals and even less players.
I remember the days when your killboard meant something, now you just turn it off and it’s all but meaningless.
Eve is not about PVP, or killboard statistics would be important. Every game needs a goal for players to achieve - Eve has wealth generation.

Question, why do gankers do what they do?
Answer, to stop others from gaining wealth.

Question, why do people PVP
Answer, to take wealth from others

Question, what is the main aim of Eve Online game play
Answer, wealth

It’s wrong but ok.
You Eve your way and thousands of others will Eve theirs.

How do you Eve? You must be the expert as you keep telling others they are doing it wrong. SO, what is the correct way to Eve?

This wasn’t always the case.

For the first few years of the game’s existence, PvP aversion was generally rare, and most players had no problem fighting other players. The reversal happened around 2011, when incursions were originally released. Past that point, the ratio of PvP to PvE players started to decline. This likely happened due to the combination of 2 factors: a shift in development focus on sustainable, grindable PvE, and gaming going “mainstream” to the point where casual gamers were entering hardcore niches like MMOs. WoW, for example, went through a similar decline in difficulty during that period.

Ahhh yes, the original “wealth generation” aspect of what we have now.

Is also when CCP made major changes to corp and alliance structures. allowing the founding of todays mega groups.
CCP wrongly presumed that if they had bigger groups of players banded together, they would fight more. Instead, they became isolated isk making entities that won’t fight because they have too much to lose.

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Yup. So the question is: did CCP screw up, or did they intentionally switch their development track to transform the game into a PvE/wealth accumulation sim/whatever game, without telling anyone of their intent?

Because the game most definitely was primarily a hardcore PvP game before 2011. Players understood the importance of conquest and loss as a primary economic driver.

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In your case though the burger has actually been served to you, it is you yourself who is not bothered to go and get the burger from the counter top. You’ve left it there to rot and then you’ve written a google review telling people this burger place doesn’t serve burgers.

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Yes, and it pretty much always has. Because the setup has been the same since day 1: more loss than gain from PvP.

Every MER and quarterly newsletter since the beginning has pointed out there’s way more PvE and production than PvP. PvE players basically paid for EVE and kept it alive, while PvP players did their level best to drive paying players away.

If you want more PvP destruction, it needs to be more interesting, more accessible, less likely to produce a loss of game progress. Again, EVE has a very simplistic set of progress axes, basically skills and ISK. PvP would work better if a more robust set of rewards and advancement avenues existed.

At any rate, working with the current minimal reward structure, there’s still ways to jazz it up. For instance, Faction Warfare could stop being the pathetic bottable “Sit in plex to flip it, run away if a fight shows up, get paid” failure it currently is. It should have nice payments for the LP, but LP would only be paid for actual destruction caused. Not kills, because that can be farmed, but actual value of destroyed assets.

Plexing should basically only be used to change the overall environment to one more favorable to your battle. Like Abyss weather effects where you could create speed/weapon/EHP effects by setting up the proper plexes.

There should also be a mechanic for benefitting the underdog side. Otherwise one side will grab an advantage and hold it, and then there’s little reason to fight for the losing side.

A second area that’s underutilized is low sec. There’s a reason gankers hang out in high sec: it’s because they can’t handle the PvP in low sec or other areas where they aren’t protected. Low sec you might find a solo player, or a small gang, or a scout force for a capital fleet that can drop on you. It’s too variable to make it interesting for most people who would potentially go there.

Take something like a mix of the Emerging Conduits we had a while back, blended with Abyssals and WHs. Say that Low Sec starts developing mini-WHs that drop into Drifter/Sleeper space. You can scan them down, but you don’t know what’s on the other side until you go through. The other side can have weather/combat effects (like Abyss and new ones, cap drain, overheat double/half damage, etc.)

Some sites would have exploration, some mining, some combat. There could be a new kind of “chunky” loot drop, say 200-500m3 in size, that when you take it back and reprocess it becomes some of the expensive parts for capital / BS construction.

To take advantage of these would require a lot of scouting and a mix of combat/mining/explo / hauling ships. If the exit takes you out somewhere else (or random) then you can’t be dropped on by massive fleets - combat would have to take place on the way in or inside. And could have WH type limitations on what gets in.

Anyways, I’m sure the PvP crowd will go bananas as usual and scream that this is all complete shyte. The point is, PvP can and should be improved. Eve is marketed as a hardcore PvP game but has so little PvP, so poorly accessible, that most players just ignore it.

CCP doesn’t care, because they know they’re selling PvE / space economy, and the PvP ‘hook’ is just there so everyone can pretend they’re hardcore. But if enough people get loud enough (and if the bottom line gets hit enough), then maybe, just maybe, CCP will spend a little effort on putting the PVP back in their “PvP hardcore” game.

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Um, no.

Unless by “first few years” you mean up to 2006, when everyone was still learning the game. Even then it’s questionable.

Convos like this one have been going on since shortly after I joined the game in 2006:

That’s 2010, and people are already talking about the long-lasting issue of “too many farmers, not enough PvP”.

This issue is designed into EVE, it’s not recent and it’s not due to CCP “caving in to the demands of carebears”. It’s just bad PvP design, has been from the start. There’s just a very small niche of PvPers (normally only a few dozen at any given time) who can’t face that.

Well, and CCP of course, they can’t deal with it either. So they keep trying to fix everything except the actual problem.

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Exactly, so the fact that this happens means the person creating the wealth is a high value target. This will prompt others to wait for them on gates, wait for them in combat sites and generally try to destroy their ships so they can access the billion isk modules in the loot drop.

Guys like you simply must understand this and not ignore it. Shout as much as you like “this is not a pvp game” but the people who want to rob your wealth will see it as a pvp game because they can and actually are effective at robbing pilots wealth.

Stop being ignorant and and take note of EVERYTHING that happens in eve, not just the parts you like but also note the parts you dislike.

The issue with you is that you’re only looking at it from the perspective of the PVE pilot generating wealth, you talk as if the people trying to destroy him and steal his wealth aren’t there when they blatantly are.

Real talk though, can’t you just stop playing eve and go play a game where you never have to come into contact with another human player ever?

Granted that “should” hold true.
Look at the most recent attempt at a major war. Game limitations and mechanics are what brought it to a stalemate, not players willingness to fight.
The limitations of game mechanics were designed by CCP, were added to the game by CCP and will remain an issue until CCP grows a pair and fixes them.
As you yourself said, CCP has spent too much time and effort catering to those who want “safe” game play.

You don’t know or don’t talk to many pvp’rs then.
If you want to pvp and win in the most cost effictive way possible - which for me at least is the aim of pvp - then you are limited as to what ships you fly.

EG; If killing your opponent is the only goal of pvp why don’t gankers fly T2 cruisers? They are fast, agile, have good tanks, high DPS, are readily available
They simply pick the most “cost effective” way to do their thing.

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They tried, many times. Look what happened shortly after every attempt. Boosted mining yields and the doubling of barge EHP is the latest example.

Everything is possible, but considering who I am and what I represent, this should be highly unlikely.

I’m sure they would, if ganking didn’t result in a ~20 second kill trigger that makes all ship stats aside from damage output completely irrelevant.

You’re a bit of a dreamer aren’t you.

Those with trillions of isk didn’t get it by being careless with their wealth.

As most of the wealthiest players don’t need to do combat sites, good luck with that.

Ahhhh, there it is. That hate. The I don’t agree with you so you should fuk off. The real talk, I don’t have a good arguement against you so just fuk off.

Been waiting for it and you didn’t disappoint.

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They are not bad ideas, the issue is still you and people like you. If the game was designed exactly to your specification that i quoted you still wouldn’t pvp.

You’ll have to accept this is a difficult game where it can take a long time to learn and gain assets, the issue is that one could lose billions in a few seconds if they jump through the wrong gate or lack understanding of pvp in general. People are more likely to stay away from pvp for these reasons, nopt because it’s badly designed.

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Nor was it plain sailing. Now suddenly people with bling ships aren’t targets? Don’t make me laugh.

Dude, seriously, just go back to sleep until the new year rolls around, and then you can do another seven days of PvP in the entire coming year.

Or you can point again to Destiny as a “worthy PvPer” who hasn’t PvP’d since 2014.

I mean, I call you on your PvP record, and you’re all “you don’t know me, what I do outside killmails, what my alts do” yadda yadda. But that only applies to you and not me, I guess. Hypocrite.

I PvP every day. In tanks, warships, battlemechs, weirdass heroes, space ships, whatever takes my fancy. I’ve PvP’d in EVE. I would like to PvP more in EVE, but I’m an adult with responsibilities and I just don’t have the ridiculous time to waste to get a decent PvP fight opportunity in EVE.

It’s perfectly fine if other people do. But you only have to look at the player login charts and the MERs to see that fewer and fewer people are playing, and fewer and fewer people are PvPing.

I get that you think PvP in EVE is just awesome and rosy. So rosy you almost never do it, of course. But anyway, I think it can be better. I give examples and ideas for that. All you can do is cry because you got your fingers burned and parrot “people like you will never PvP”.

Stop sulking about it and grow up. It’s not personal. You couldn’t even identify one single proposal of mine yet you somehow know “the issue is people like you will never PvP”.

News flash for ya, dude: EVE has had hundreds of thousands of players who PvP. Guess what? 95% of them left the game because the PvP kinda sucks. And the posts are there to prove it for over a decade. Try to widen your viewpoint to “ways PvP can be improved in EVE” and you might end up doing something useful.

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Hangon, I thought we were talking about hurting those with trillions of isk. Now you’ve changed it to “bling ships”?
You have ALWAYS had issues when it comes to posting in context, this reply is a prime example.

Ok, I’ll bite. What is classed as a bling ship. For me, putting a couple of bil into a T3 cruiser is just how it is. Idon’t consider it “blinged out”, it’s just the optimal fitting. That may not be the same for others though, so -
Is that enough for you to consider it a worthy target to rob the rich of their wealth. Are you sure the owner is “rich” or is it a ship he’s spent months building up.

It actually was back in the day

Sorry it took so long to reply but reading your attempt to change the context of my post - Just cracked me up, took me a while to be able to type again.

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This doesn’t really have anything to do with trillions—you moved that goal post yourself. It doesn’t matter how much wealth a player has; it only matters if they’re a target at the time. Trillionaires are extreme outliers anyway. The average player’s wealth is probably just a couple billion ISK.

Players who kill other players don’t care if their targets are going to drop more. They’d certainly prefer it, but the kills are going to get made either way (barring specifically high-value suicide-ganking in high-sec, where targets need to pass a minimum threshold of value to be viable).

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I believe it was a bit of both.
As I said, they wrongly presumed haveing larger groups banded together would create more of the big (real world) news worthy fights we had back in the day. A decent goal, except the outcome was those groups becoming less and less inclined to fight due to the risk of losing.
Sov became and still is dependant on how many Supers (the ships most new up and coming groups willnever have access to) you have OR who you ally with.
Warfare was limited to personal grudges between mega group leadership.

And at the end of the day, when a group of 30,000+ players can sit in a single constellation in complete safety - There is something wrong with the game mechanics.

It was and they did and CCP for whatever reason took those content/pvp drivers away.
We went from grinding for sov (as bad as we thought it was at the time) and alarm clocking so you didn’t miss a timer
To
Nice safe sov won and lost with wands and Supers instead of ships on grid, all but invulnerable structures you could dock the biggest ships in safely, for as long as you choose.
Then we have - Rorquals and the homogenization of moon mining that turned players into trillionares and made building the primary driver needed to take and hold sov (supers/titans) into something every line member could own multiple of.

What else besides mining ships have been nerf resistances lately?

Those aren’t the only classes of ships for combat. Far from it.

How?

And if EVE truly is an economy system then you can’t have a health economy without people getting AND keeping their wealth.

“Wealth” doesn’t just include ships and ships.

You mean in the last 5 or 6 years - Around the time PVP became less and less prolific.
Changes made 5 or 6 yers ago still impact the game today, some far more than others. Like Rorqual changes, the impact of that and other changes around the same time is what led to scarcity and is far from over.

Ok but choice is the advertised goal of Eve. I started playing Eve because I had to make choices, now CCP is making them for me.
My health is such that flying smaller ships is difficult due to micro management, hence my liking larger ships that were a little more forgiving in combat. I can’t fix my failing eyesight and tell my arthritic hands to work properly just because CCP changes aspects of my choice of play style, AGAIN.
CCP have become very adept at nerfing play styles and options and trying to pass them of as “good for the game”. So far it’s failing miserably.

This time of year used to see an average of 30k to 40k online. Current average for the month is 20k.
Do you not think removing “choice” in a game advertised as a game of choice might have something to do with the decline?

Read my post and see if you can respond in context. Before you do though, look at CCP’s stated goals for the last 2 years of scarcity.

I never said it did, you must be an expert at “reading between the lines” and finding things I never said. Not a new thing, this forum over the years has had thousands just like you. Most now long gone thankfully.

Most of my wealth was in isk and plex but thanks to the recent industry changes I now have nearly 2 trillion in assets as well.
And I’m a poor by some standards.

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To be fair they were giving the people what they wanted.

It just so happens that the thing the people want makes them lose interest in the game after two months, but before they get it, it’s like the most desirable, enticing thing ever.

It’s like a drug addiction. You’ll do anything to stuff your face with coke or ram a syringe full of heroin into your veins, and afterwards you’ll overdose and die. But before that happens, you just want the drugs and nothing else is as important as that.