I am actually the worst Gallentean lapdog in the history of Gallentean lapdogs.
And no, you’re wrong because history didn’t happen in reverse.
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Oh Maker… Now you’re gonna claim I claimed something I didn’t to prove your “point”?..
Just get out.
You can leave too.
Her own thread? That seems something of an excessive demand.
I believe my brother was referring to how such a massive effort was kept completely secret due to the colossal amount of manpower it required. The more people who know about a secret the more difficult it is to keep it a secret, and with the resources being diverted to the Elder fleet there would be innumerable people who realized something was amiss.
Incompetence cuts both ways. Someone is always going to make a mistake, and the idea that the Republic’s government was the sole source of incompetence or error in the whole affair is wildly implausible.
The Caldari managed it with their secret colonies…
Not necessarily. The diversion came in Federal aid funding, not necessarily materiel. Once the funding is diverted—into a number of discretionary black budget items, for example—it is gone. Everyone assumes it’s been properly allocated. And the small number of individuals in control of those individual black budget items don’t know about one another. So the person co-ordinating the matter only needs to keep them informed about plausible expenditures within each project.
For example: A black budget intelligence operation looking to track the location of Thukker shipyards. How do you keep track of Thukker shipyards? You run a covert, deniable program supplying them with materiel. Because the whole thing is being run as a covert operation within the RSS, none of the operatives involved are likely to talk. Nobody in the RSS who knows about it has any reason to believe there is anything untoward going on. Only the person at the top who ordered the whole thing does.
And there’s a good dozen of these isolated, completely compartmentalized ‘tracking’ programs happening at once, all reporting to the same person. None of them know one another exist. None of them have any reason to think there’s anything to blow the whistle on.
Rather than incompetence, it is competence that keeps such things hidden—competence and an experience with decentralized cell-structure operations.
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Heh, true enough.
@Anna_Stjornauga Also true.
Commander Kim:
While I consider it laudable that you may seek to defend an official ally of the State in the Amarr Empire for you are a soldier, and it is not expected to question orders insofar as the Caldari-Amarr friendship alliance pact remains valid – despite the old adage that there exists no such thing as permanent alliances, only permanent interests. For now, indeed, there exists an interest to keep the Empire on friendly terms if only to prevent the further abuses and depredation of the Gallente upon Caldari soil as you have outlined by acting as a check upon Federal expansionism.
However, as regards the Matari, I feel both Caldari and the Minmatar share more in common than that which currently divides us due to the impositions of Interstellar realpolitik and the requirements of status quo. Both Caldari and Minmatar share in common a history of attempted foreign domination and subjugation over a free and sovereign society: via Gallentean colonialism over Caldari populations and territory on one hand, and Amarrian enslavement of Minmatar and imperialism on the other.
The result of both has been the forging of a collective memory of resistance in the crucible of attempted foreign domination that sought to divide and conquer; to control; to humiliate; and oppress free nations and societies in the name of ‘civilization’ which demonized those to be subjugated as somehow lesser or undeserving of a right to exist independently because they are arbitrarily deemed uncivilized and unworthy of existence.
This collective memory of resistance will always remember what was done, and it is not easily suppressed – indeed, why should it be, for it was born of righteous indignation at the mistreatment at the hands of others. It will always say, never again, and continue to fight for a just cause: the right to exist, and to be free from domination and subjugation by foreign invaders.
As such, while one might be expected to uphold treaties in public it should not mean a lack of conscience in private, or seeing a provocation by a foreign invader for what it is: a provocation.
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So are you supporting Sarum out of loyalty to your Amarr allies, or just because you are salty the Gallente are torturing prisoners?
There is no connection between these two injustices save the one you have manufactured in your mind. At least form a coherent argument.
I do not understand, you have never denied your support of slavery before, why do you suddenly need Caldari victims to justify it?
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I support them because they are our allies. Moreover, I see a military initiative that I believe our stagnating conflict lacks, we need decisive pushes to win the war. Luck favors those who dare.
As for torturing prisoners I use it only to shame those, who outcry about possible even not committed yet atrocity to try to halt a military operation that might not even cause any atrocities per se, while ignoring atrocities that are going on.
I see now your diminishing lack of actual argumentation and primitive personal attack, that neither gives you merit, nor makes your point more valid. Quite counterwise, it makes your post look more like an impotent childish outcry.
I would never support slavery itself as a concept, especially with my point of views on the slavery itself that I often speak of, for example, in IGS neocom channel. Only a complete fool or brainwashed gallente bootlicker would claim I will support “just” slavery.
What I do support is Amarr traditions and their own way of life, whatever it might include while it stays an internal Imperial policy rather than a policy to neutral or allied neighbors. It’s for Amarr only to decide shall they implement slavery or not. And I will defend any of their decisions that Imperial authorities will choose.
I do not need any justification to that. Bullies who try to change others internal policies (through coercion, terror, warfare, etc) instead of external ones disgust me and I will be fighting them with words and steel.
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So were the State or, even, the mega you are affliated to decided that House Sarum was an enemy of the State for whatever reason, would you then find their actions abhorrent?
That is because there isn´t one to be had.
This is pretty much it, isn’t it?
So you want the Caldari to take the same initiative? Fair.
Look, I get it. You’re a Caldari soldier and you want to support the allies of the State and fight the enemies of the state. That’s all fair enough, even if your people’s choice of allies remains lamentable.
What I don’t get is why you feel the need to wrap it up in an argument of moral equivalence by dragging the Federation into it.
Yeah, atrocities are going to be committed by the Amarr, at least as we define atrocities (i believe for you it is “property damage?”)
Yeah, everybody is committing atrocities in this war. Nobody’s hands are clean, although I feel the bodycount is a whole lot higher for one side then the other. You really can’t compare the number of victims the Federation makes versus the number of victims the Empire makes, if we count slaves as victims.
And yeah, everybody’s a hypocrit crying foul while their own side is committing their own share of atrocities.
But if the point of this whole post was a call to arms, it feels out of place to rope the Federation into it. Hell, they’re not even helping!
You see a military initiative, Commander, because you are looking at a military commander giving an order to attack. However, he is not giving an order to attack a military objective. He is giving an order to commit terrorism: indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations with the ultimate intent of achieving a political, not military, objective. That objective is to sow fear, and enslave civilians who have committed no crimes.
Atrocity is the objective.
By this standard, it is for the Gallente to decide if they shall torture prisoners of war or not. Amarr enslavement of law-abiding Minmatar citizens of the Republic is no more a matter of internal policy than the Federal decision to torture Caldari State citizens captured as prisoners of war.
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What I see as a terrorism is an inefficient unprofessional hostile action targeting people lives or threatening their lives. If he is planning a planet-wide operation it’s not really a terror, as he is only capturing them, not murdering or threatening their lives. Besides, as I have written in Off-topic thread already, capturing them, unlike murdering, is a rather reversible action.
And repeating this idea here again, capturing them alone does not constitute and atrocity. Civilians must follow orders of military personnel if they are found it the warzone, and if these personnel are not genocidal maniacs like gallenteans, the civilians should be safe. I would put this operation under ‘extreme overboard security measures’ rather than ‘atrocity’. They weren’t planning to torture or genocide them, isn’t it so?
Well, if they reside in Imperial territory now under Imperial authority they have to abide Imperial laws as well, that is the nature of the war. Nations bring their laws to occupied territory and citizens have no other options than live with that or depart. Moreover, CONCORD accepts enslavement as a punishment in the Amarr Empire legally…
… but I haven’t heard CONCORD accepts tortures, rape and beatings as proper and legal methods of handling prisoners of war.
And there is also that part that really breaks your argument here. Gallente prisons are often found in hidden deadspace pockets in Caldari territory under our control (for example, even high security Black Rise outside the warzone). They are breaking our laws by doing that.
Beating is a legal and standard disciplinary practice in Amarr, especially for slaves. Speaking from experience.
Torture and rape (and murder, for that matter)… well, it’s forbidden by Amash-Akura’s laws of warfare, but laws on the rights of Holders give them extensive leniency in how they deal with their subjects, especially slaves.
As for what CONCORD accepts, if they allow prisoners of war to be enslaved, then they allow Imperial law and disciplinary customs to be applied to prisoners of war. The bigger question, the one CONCORD needs to answer, is whether they are going to allow the Empire to treat civilian populations as prisoners of war. PoWs should only be enemy combatants. Those who haven’t raised arms should be spared.
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With that I agree completely.
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