Incoming Changes to the Orca

Scipio_Artelius · March 20, 2021, 10:48pm

It’s more just a meme (96% of the Eve player base are sociopathic, no-life, basement dwelling males), but if you are in the 4% of sociopathic, no-life, basement dwelling females (assuming only 2 genders), then my apology.

Yea, just seems a weird one tbh. On a scale from capsule to titan, in terms of ease to kill, the orca sits closer to the titan than it does a capsule.

Looking at the last 2000 kills:

Characteristic	Value
Mean damage taken	112,717
Mean total damage based on flat 60% resists	281,793

Obviously a flat resist profile isn’t perfect, but as a first approximation, the average Orca seems to be at about 300K EHP.

That is probably part of the reason that most of them are killed outside highsec (though highsec still sees far more than 10% of losses). Orca kills by security region:

Region of space	Kills	% of kills
JSpace	133	6.7
Nullsec	479	23.9
Lowsec	561	28.1
Highsec	826	41.3

Given the impression at least, that the Orca is a highsec ship; and is used extensively in highsec, it’s surprising (at least to me, but critics will criticize so good luck to them), that 60% of Orca losses are from areas of space where they are used less.

Of the highsec losses, ganks only make up about 7% of all Orca losses (7.4%); and the mean number of gankers to achieve a kill is 27 gank ships.

It seems NPCs are the biggest killers of Orcas in highsec. Of the 826:

Cause	Kills
Gank	147
War	141
NPC, Killright, Suspect, CONCORD	538

Most of the NPC related losses don’t appear to be trigs either (though that’s just a look by eye), which is strange. There’s enough EHP in an Orca that even if you were pointed by normal rats (which doesn’t happen in highsec), you’d be able to refit stabs and moonwalk out of there. I don’t know if that suggests a lot of people are just going AFK when using their Orca, but just seems strange.

In any case, from the most recent 2000 losses, the Orca is a pretty strong ship (and that is fine. It should stay that way in my view).

Yep. No one is forcing anyone. I’m happy chatting as I am; and it’s on topic.

Nevyn_Auscent · March 20, 2021, 11:26pm

Have you also checked for the Diamond rats and response fleets? I think you’ll find they account for a significant percentage also.

They get used in low as well where Rorquals are simply too dangerous to use the core, and even in Null now by many smaller alliances or in higher risk areas. It’s certainly not a highsec only ship.

While I can’t speak for Zayisha, I would suggest it is more the ‘Any ship in highsec is easy to kill’ in terms of once you are set up, it’s press buttons, 15 seconds later ship goes boom. Logistics is not difficult or complicated in terms of moving gank ships, just time consuming.

Anderson_Geten · March 21, 2021, 12:56am

telling me that I could not read the posts is definitely not.

You know you can evaluate the actual EHP of each orca kill ?
Making a generality out of a generality doubles the error rate : your interpretation becomes a stretch. Though I agree that a *3 is a general good approximation.

Again, this is a vague interpretation. Most ships are more killed outside of highsec - besides the barges that are designed to be bad(not even sure).

Again a stretch. You are trying to force arbitrary terms that actually have no meaning and jumping to conclusions.

Orcas are used everywhere, because they give good boost, they can actually carry a good weight.
Claiming they are a HS ships is just ignorance.
Also stretching from kills to usage is … FFS just wrong. If every time you use a ship you had to get it killed that would become quickly non possible to use them.

ROFL. That need for spin would make a very good video game.

Thotamon · March 21, 2021, 3:57am

Some of the differences between orca and rorqual is of course the fact the Rorqual can’t be used in HS, and to get the sweet mining you have to use the industrial core which locks you in place for 5 minutes, and that is the only time you can compress ore so using it is more risky, and it cost give or take 5 times the Orca.

Maybe the Rorqual being the top of the line ship could then get refining/mineral compression, now that would be nice, but also mineral compression would be a huge change since you can’t do that today

zazzmatazz_Xu · March 21, 2021, 7:09am

Gospel if ever was.

Penance_Toralen · March 21, 2021, 10:47am

The player is given a choice of yield. Personally given the choice, I got with the Skiff. When I could do things a lot easier in a orca or porpoise. And none of these or this thread cover gas.

I do not see an issue with low involved activity. When you consider that most of industry in Eve is a “set and forget”. To copy a freighter blueprint is 8 days. I do not have to do a thing for over week and still make isk. Is it the thought process to turn industry into a mechanical clock I need to wind all the time. Used to set 14day cycles on PI. Making isk and not active at the keyboard.

Go to an Ice Belt. It is not Orcas sitting around. There will be a couple providing boosts, but most of the heavy lifting is done with Skiffs and sometimes Procurers.

I would be just as happy to see the orca broken down into; foreman command ship, foreman logi/re-fitting and harvested-material freighter. Just delete mining drones. Or change their function to a static Sentry/Mining drone. Trading off the miners mobility vs yield.

Anderson_Geten · March 21, 2021, 11:18am

This.
It’s not a problem to have a reduction in gain per time (yield for mining) translate into an increase in gain per action. It’s actually the case for many activities in eve, not only mining or PI or industry, but also killing rats : drones are actually less efficient, so are missiles, than turrets, but they require less actions ; And tanking too : perma tanking requires cap stability so is much worse than active tanking, but allows much less actions per minutes to handle.

There can be a problem when a lower actions per gain translates into the same gain per minute(VNI, gila, old carrier problem). It’s not the case for the orca since its yield (24.8)is way lower than barges and exhumers’ (lowest is procurer with 27.8 and 84k EHP; hulk can reach 64.6 with T2 and implants but only 12k EHP), and that’s without considering the drone movement speed that actually reduces it even more.

The only problem is that those people don’t care about anything like balancing and just want to stretch terms to make up a problem that does not exist in the first place.

Zayisha_Andara · March 21, 2021, 1:51pm

That was a nice sum-up. Well done.
I’m surprised about those 40% though.

Most People are like Water. They chose the most effortless way to reach their destination.
HiSec is full of Mining Ships that are more effortless to kill than an Orca. That’s probably where the low interest for the Orca comes from.
But since this is HiSec, and Concord is there for a reason that is a good thing.
It’s still quite easy to find Orca Pilots that “help” you not to have Concord interferance.
And a Orca in an 1:1 (where no one can interfere if you time it correctly) in HiSec is a free Kill. Even for a destroyer, just takes a bit longer!

Back to the Orca and AFK-ability.
What just slipped my Mind:
Just make Belt Rats Focus more on Drones. AFK-ability disrupted.
Well not really disrupted, but a AFK Orca without active Drones is an AFK Ship without real use.

Xuixien · March 21, 2021, 2:06pm

So now Orcas are hard to kill in HiSec?

Hmmm ok. Glad we finally agreed!

You’re free to come out to Solitude with a T1 or T2 destroyer and test this on one of my Orcas via duel request. I promise you it will not go the way you think.

Zayisha_Andara · March 21, 2021, 2:57pm

Yes!
For you they are hard to kill!
We already agreed on that earlier.

And come up with an unrealistic Orca fit, right!
Nah, under realistic conditions your fit would be scanned and the ship for the attack chosen, based on the fit.

No need to proof Earth is a Sphere when it’s done multiple times before:

Xuixien · March 21, 2021, 3:07pm

You’re free to ship scan me before the fight. You can even go against my lowest skilled character. He can’t even use medium drones.

Now you’re shifting goalposts. You said it would be “easy” for a destroyer to kill an Orca. In fact, you said it was a free kill - “even for a destroyer”.

Well, I’m giving you the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is. Come bring a T1 or T2 destroyer and duel my Orca.

I’m waiting.

Except none of those Orcas were killed by a T1 or T2 destroyer. They were all killed by T3Ds, T2 cruisers, and a pirate battleship.

So what I’m hearing is you don’t want to be embarrassed so you’re not going to come fight my Orca with a T1 or T2 dessie. Mmkay. Concession accepted!

Zayisha_Andara · March 21, 2021, 4:02pm

As said, no need to make the Trip to Solitude. The Facts have been proven numerous times.
See the links… they are all Solo Kills, which is the point.

Yes, and in the first linked Kill in my last post it’s prooven.
(the 85365719 one)
And guess what… a T3 Destroyer actually IS a Destroyer!
Gasp! O_O
Shooooooooooooooooking! I know!

Xuixien · March 21, 2021, 4:09pm

You said an Orca would be a “free kill” for a destroyer. I invited you to come prove this by dueling my Orca with a T1 or T2 destroyer. Hell, you can even bring a Hecate - I’m a generous and charitable man.

Until you do, though, nothing’s proven. So sorry.

I’d said T1 or T2. This is just shifting goalposts, trying to weasel your way out because you can’t back up your words with actions. At this point I don’t care about your words. I invited you to come duel my Orca. Until you accept that offer and come put your words to the test, you got nothing.

Again:

Concession…

…accepted.

Anderson_Geten · March 21, 2021, 4:14pm

Which is cherry picking again. Most of the time, the orca fielded in HS would be free kill for destroyers - precisely becaue they are in HS and don’t even have to deal with said destroyers.

Hu, yes. It’s proven he’s right, and you are cherry picking.

Says the one cherry picking and stretching the terms.
None said that orcas can’t be fitted for fighting. Actually in NS, they are.
YOU are the one shifting the goalpost from “orcas in HS are easier to kill than in NS” to “you are wrong unless you agree with my childish request”.

Koko_The_Monkey · March 21, 2021, 5:59pm

We just need to agree that the Orca is a fleet boosting ship and should have remained as such. Remove the mining bonuses for drones for ice and ore from it and its fine. Something everyone can agree on.

Zayisha_Andara · March 21, 2021, 6:07pm

Which would make it a 100% AFK Ship, which is not wanted.
So sorry, but no. That is nothing “everyone” can agree on.

Boober_Fraggle · March 21, 2021, 10:14pm

Actually, buffing it was a feature in my day. Mining was made more profitable by drone poo being removed and then mission loot rebalanced with regards as how much ore was being reprocessed. CCP said they would increase the ISk per hour made mining in high sec and they then buffed hisec ming vessels potential EHP to be less attractive to (i guess small groups of) gankers. So if they “finally nerf” hisec mining anymore than it is, a lot of people are going to quit. I ain’t one of them, I’m just pointing out the history.

Also, My AFK porpoise pays for itself every 10 hours I think. It sure AF don’t do that in the Orca. You see an AFK Orca, Kill it. Its the only right thing to do.

Vortigern_Vitalis · March 21, 2021, 11:26pm

Please, cease with this nonsense about, “Everyone can agree on.” If you read the thread, you would know that there are people who do not agree with this, and we have explained why, in painstakingly careful terms.

Whether you like it or not, the Orca, as an industrial command ship (not a “fleet boosting ship”) has a perfectly legitimate active mining role. There is absolutely no rational reason to nerf that capability, and in 460 plus posts, not one person has been able to provide anything approaching a rational reason, other than huffing about the nonsensical fantasy of mythical “AFK Orcas” ruining the economy.

So please, stop with these fake pleas for “consensus”.

Xuixien · March 21, 2021, 11:56pm

The boosting is what makes it a “command ship” - same as all the other “command” ships.

AFK Orcas are not a myth.
I can’t remember anyone making an economic argument against the Orca in particular.

Let’s stay honest, ok?

Nevyn_Auscent · March 22, 2021, 12:30am

If there is no economic issue, then there is no need to nerf the mining abilities of the Orca.
Aim your solution at the problem, not at something you are saying is not a problem.