Incoming Changes to the Orca

Depending on you POV, yes it can be a problem.

Thing is, this Topic is about the Orca.
And the Orca is not the Problem. The Mining Systems is.

Have a look at Elite Dangerous and you know what i’m talking about.
The Solution lies in reworking the Mining, not the Orca.

Make it like ED, problem solved.
Jump into the Belt, start to search a high Value Rock.
Fire you Laser, and have Loot depending on how well you perform (aka, the more activity you put in).
And make sure, that it is possible to get the same Loot in ISK with that in 15 to 30 Minutes that now takes 8h of so called AFK Mining.

And because you try this false thing up again: no, it wouldn’t destroy Economy.
If there is only x amount of Ore, it’s just mined out faster.

So more PVP (competition who gets the rocks), more activity, LESS Time on Grid.

I think you mean ‘More PvE for people who log on right after downtime, no ore for anyone else, hardly any PvP because no-one is in a belt to be attacked or compete.’

Also

This assumes that 100% of x is currently getting mined out and that time is not a limiting factor on many peoples efforts.

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If you want to say: “it aint that easy to rework mining”. Agreed.

“x” can be adjusted by CCP as they see fit.
And time is the most just and fair indicator. Every human has 24h per day at their disposal. It’s just how you decide to spend them.

That can be adjusted as well by CCP (just go away from lazy: “everything respawns with the same numbers at the same spot on downtime”)
Actually they are already doing this. Have a look at Ice mining for an example.

You don’t have to be in the same spot at the same time. Competing for good rocks is more like Market PvP.

“not to be attacked”
That would be: “less effortles Targets to be attacked”.
And that’s a good thing.
Combat PVP is not what a miner is looking for. Especially not when they have chosen to be in HiSec.
So that would Force lazy, low skilled Gankers that are looking for effortles easy targets to adep. Not even speaking of NOT supporting Narcissists/Soziopaths/Psychopaths who just roam HiSec to create Drama (and feed on that).
Those would actually have to harden up and adept. Being forced to go in Null-/Lowsec to find targets, flown by people that are willing to do Combat PVP, while flying the proper Ships for that activity.
Basically leading to more quality Combat PVP.

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EVE mining is created with slow low intensity gameplay in mind. Mining ships have good yield, but apart from the frigates, are some of the slowest ships in the game for their size. Mining ships are intentionally slow and intentionally spend a lot of time in ore anomalies and belts to allow gameplay opportunities where these ships can defend themselves against agressors with their drones, shield boosts and shield reps.

EVE mining gameplay is created like it is with player interaction in mind, whether it takes the form of suicide gankers in high sec or roaming pvpers in other regions. Without content like this in space, space would be pretty dead.

I understand that your example of more engaging quick gameplay where you enter a site, put in more effort and extract valuables fast is a tempting alternative to mining in EVE, but we already have a gameplay activity that fills this description in EVE: exploration.

Mining has a good place in EVE as a slow low activity gameplay option. We just need to make sure it isn’t too low activity, as that enables large scale multiboxing, which makes the activity much less worth doing for the non-multiboxing competitors.

and intentionally bad.

But if the suicide gankers job is too easy, then space is also pretty dead. Which is the case with barges, and why people use orcas. Orcas can also be ganked, it’s just that contrary to what some people say, many gankers don’t want a target that requires as much investment to kill as the target does. (Note that not all gankers share that twisted mentality, some actually do it for the lolz)

No more carebears than a gankers who fly cats.

Nah.
You can multibox with many activities. It’s not an issue per se. And if multiboxing reduces the income of the competitors, then it also reduces the income of the multiboxer, meaning the gain from the activity is less than linear even though the activity in itself requires linear inputs. Which is a form of balancing already present.

Barges each have their clear strengths and weaknesses. If you want to call that ‘intentionally bad’, go ahead. I prefer to call it 'intentionally well balanced to allow optimisation choices’.

Obviously a lot of people only gank when it’s profitable. In a game that’s all about profits, from industry, hauling, trading, exploration, missions… why would profitable ganking be a twisted mentality?

I agree that profits for multiboxers going down is indeed a form of balancing. However, if ‘multiboxing profits’ is the main driving factor to balance profits for an activity, it means that by the time multiboxers may consider the activity not worth their time anymore, the solo player, who’s time is paying significantly less, has already considered the activity to be worthless for a long time. And that’s a shame, why should certain activities only be worth doing for multiboxers?

I’m not against multiboxing, but I do think that any activity that is as easily multiboxed as Orcas in a belt with large volumes (such as ice) should be adjusted.

It isn’t, if it’s done right.
If someone wants to gank non-combat targets (miners/haulers) you can do that in a profitable way very easy: go to Low-/NullSec. No CONCORD there.

Ganking profitability is not a gameplay design. It’s player choice to be a profitable ganking target.

Or rather, player mistake.

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No it’s not. PvP in general is not profitable in Eve, for the sole reason it’s a negative sum game : players who engage in PVP don’t do it with the sole reason to be isk positive. In that regard, “profitable” suicide ganking is twisted , especially when they look down on “carebears” with insults like “greed” or “calm down”.

They are not. They are worth the same for each. Just, an activity that is easily doable will crumble in value. Like exploration, or L4 SOE.

Then you are against profitable multiboxing.

CCP doesn’t seem to agree.

Solution is both.

Oh so you want to flood the market even more than you suggested before - flood the market by 16-32x more minerals, just so they leave your AFK Orca alone.

Yes it’s mined out 16-32x faster which means per unit of time a miner can produce 16-32x more minerals into the economy…

You again not seem to understand a very easy concept! :smile:

When you find yourself in a closed system (what New Eden is) and someone puts x amount of something into it, that is all you can get.

You are sitting in a Jailhouse Cell and someone puts a Bottle of two Liters into that Cell. It doesn’t matter how fast you drink. When those two Liters are gone, they are gone.
Same when they put someone else with you in there. Doesn’t matter who is faster. There is only those two Liters avaiable for both of you.

But i start to like your way of “logic”. Wish i could find employees like that.
“Hey, i only have 100 Bucks to spend on you. But you have to work 10h for that, not only 2. Because that would be bad for Economy”!
:joy: :joy: :joy:

Absolutely, just had those pictures of Freighters in my head. Flying around with Cargo extenders and 12B worth of goods.

And yes, atm it is decided by the Orca players (their mistake) if they are a profitable ganking target.
Those people now asking for making it even more effordless to gank as it already is, wanting it to become a general gameplay design that they are always effordles and profitable to gank by default.

Name one time that all the asteroids in EVE were completely mined.

I’ll wait.

In EVE Online we have these things called Jump Gates and Unstable Wormholes which allow you to change jail cells.

Though it was obvious, but yeah my bad. Should have been more precise in that case.
I was not talking about the Solar System, but the whole Cluster.

Name one time the entire cluster was mined out.

I’m still waiting.

“If you Immediately know the candle light is fire, then the meal was cooked along time ago!”

And since the answer is known, you also know (when you followed the conversation and were able to understand) that the amount of Ores within the Cluster can be easily controled and adjusted as CCP sees fit.
And as already brought up: have a look at Ice mining lately.

As a solo player, this is why I am so dead against any nerfs to the Orca. I have pretty much given up ice mining during scarcity, as I cannot compete against the multiboxed fleets of exhumers with one Orca boosting them. Such fleets have always existed, but they now strip the reduced number of HS ice fields proportionately much faster. As I have argued throughout this thread, I do not believe multiboxing numerous Orcas (unless it is to have one per belt in a system) makes any sense at all; if one was going to run even two mining characters simultaneously, why on earth would one NOT go for one exhumer and one Orca?

As I say, I just want the Orca, as a good, multirole, but not overpowered ship to be left alone as no one has managed to present a cogent argument for why they are a problem. Someone earlier described the Orca as a Jack of All Trades. They omitted the second half of that saying, “And master of none.”

Oh, and if we talking about the evils or otherwise of multiboxing, most gankers in HS are multiboxing. Apparently multiboxed ganking is OK, but multiboxed mining is wrong.

I do not like multiboxing, but it is really not relevant to this thread anyway.

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Nonsense aside, it sounds like you don’t have an answer.

And now you are making up even more changes (“CCP adjust the amount of ores”) in order to protect your AFK Orca mining.

So let’s see so far: you want to change all the mining ships yield and then increase the yield again by 16-32x, and change the way mining is done, and then change the amount of ores available in the game all to protect your AFK Orca mining.

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…because that wouldn’t be AFK mining. AFK mining isn’t about yield as much as it is “getting away” with doing something without actually attending to the client.

Like, really, the only reason people mine with an Orca is because it has a huge ore bay and low APM. There’s really no other reason. If you’re solo, you’d make more ISK/hr mining in a Hulk even with warping back and forth - hell probably even a Covetor.

On a little tangent to the Orca, if AFKable mining is the true issue, where does it stop?

An unboosted Mack can mine for 10-15 minutes AFK, based on asteroid sizes already noted.

An unboosted Skiff can mine for 10 minutes AFK, and that is yield fit. It could sit AFK longer if it was tank fit, and it could have insane tank in that fit.

Are these ships still acceptable in their current design?

Or because they are serving in actual fleet roles as a combination booster and hauler, who happens to mine to give themselves income b/c people suck at tipping their boosters/haulers. The ones I fly with are very much ATK, coordinating mining fleet progression through multiple belts, monitoring local, answering questions from new fleet members, etc.

Low activity requirements in the mining actions does not automatically equal away from keyboard. Some Orcas are AFK miners. Not all Orcas are AFK miners. I wouldn’t even assume that most Orcas are AFK miners.

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