I don’t. Maybe you should read what I wrote, that would avoid you missing my point.
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Your point being that mining barges are specialised to be bad?
Yea.
I don’t agree.
Maybe they’re only slightly bad because Orcas took their role as miner with the most staying power and most defences. That’s an issue of the Orca though, one that can be fixed.
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No, they always were bad.
The are designed to be sitting ducks, without any defense. So they are designed to be bad.
That’s not an issue of the orca, that’s an issue of the barge being BAD by design.
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They’re designed to be great at mining. And indeed they’re also designed as ‘sitting ducks’. That doesn’t make them bad, it allows for good gameplay choices where miners who want to fly more nimble mining ships can opt for one of the mining frigates instead. Or if they have a fleet to defend them, they can opt for more yield in one of those bad ‘sitting duck’ ships. Because those sitting ducks are pretty great at mining.
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Yes it does. Just because you can use something else, does not make them better, doh.
Being great at mining does not imply being bad in general. That’s the issue and the reason why the orca is so much used : because it’s not bad in general. Because the orca is good, even though worse at mining. So people prefer to use something that is good even though worse at mining, that something that is bad altough better at mining. And by better I mean 3 times better.
The barges and exhumers ARE bad. They have ■■■■ level fitting, and having bonus to mining does not make them good ; it makes them mining ships that are bad.
They would be good if there was no other people playing the game, if they could not be cleared off the field by 2M fits in “high security” space. It’s not the case, so they are just bad.
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Maybe we have a different usage of ‘bad’.
I don’t rate the performances of a car based on how well it can fly. Mining barges are great at mining and as such, aren’t ‘bad’ ships.
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Stop with your BS about cars. We are talking spaceships, and a spaceship that is supposed to be used in an hostile environment and can’t actually be fit for this hostile environment, by definition, is BAD.
That’s exactly why the orca is used : because it’s not bad.
You can repeat that barges are good at mining : it just does not make them good ships. They are bad ships, because they can’t be fit for the environment they are supposed to be used in.
So yes you say that the car is good because the paint job is nice, even though your car lacks an engine.
The barges ARE bad space ships. Being specialized does not prevent them from being just plainly bad.
Another example of bad ships is : the freighters and jf. for the exact same reason, they are designed to be sitting ducks and people avoid them whenever they can (so not often 
). That’s why the orca, the bowhead, the DSTs are just better : they can be fit for survival.
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Okay, I get it now.
Your idea of ‘bad’ is completely different from mine.
This perfectly illustrates why the Orca is in a wrong spot in the game right now. It’s survivability and large ore hold in combination with mining yield invalidate ships specialised for those particular roles (Procurer, Retriever and T2 versions). It’s powercreep and unbalanced.
All ships should have a role. If some ship is better at the roles of other ships, something is wrong and requires a change.
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it’s balanced because it has much lower yield.
Powercreep would be more yield.
This perfectly illustrates why your notion of “bad spot” is BS. You claim it’s better than “ships specialized for mining” while it actually is worse at mining, but good in the other fields. Also, no, it has less EHP/isk than other ships, including the procurer.
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More dps, more defences, cheaper, faster. Any possible advantage could be powercreep depending on the circumstances, not just ‘yield’.
And before you take this literally - I’m not saying that the Orca is cheaper or faster than mining barges.
The only better option is the hulk.
Thats your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. I will say this though… The orca does not mine faster than any mining barge, even with fancy drones. It does not move or warp or mine faster than any mining barge. It sucks as a miner. The only reason people use it is its fast enough with its giant ore hold that they can live with the reduced yield in exchange for not having to warp around constantly.
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Or because they don’t die when they blink in wrong moment.
Pyfa says that orca with 5 Harvesters gets 28.5 m3. Covetor only 26.2 m3. Both fits for max yield.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/power_creep
If it’s a mining ship that has less mining power, then no it’s not a power creep. The only power creep you had with mining, is the rorqual.
The orca is not better at mining. It’s just … better in many other places, because the barges are designed to be bad to start with.
you forgot to add the drones ! 54.2 m³/s
sorry could not be bothered to use non basic drones.
edit : also forgot to remove implants. 49.7 m³/s without implants, my b.
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I’m aware what pyfa says. I think a few things are happening to create those numbers. #1 pyfa does not account for drone travel time, it’s a perfect world in pyfa land. #2 did you fit t2 strip miners and appropriate crystals into the covetor? And drones. #3 did you simulate both with all 5s? You should have if you didnt.
To your other point, yes the orca is not made of wet tissue paper. That is helpful
Also, use the same level of drone in the covetor as the orca.
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I forgot to add drones.
And don’t account for you warping out with ore each few minutes. Difference in yield is so minimal that over time you probably will mine more in orca than in any barge. Not to mention tank advantages.
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I can test the ■■■■ on tq, and I promise jetcanning the covetor will absolutely ■■■■ all over the orca. Its not even close. Even with t1 strip miners its not close. You don’t warp the covetor, you warp a miasmos over and clear its can.
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Just remember to stop the clock when all ore is in station. If you ever gonna get it to station.
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Like I said, yield is not the only variable that can ‘power creep’.
The reason people use Orcas to mine is because it requires little input to keep mining. The ore hold is large enough and the tank good enough that it requires the least amount of effort of any mining setup.
And that makes it too easy to scale up for multiboxing.