Your issue is that you are taking a wrong interpretation on ‘reasonable’. You are setting your standard to need to be able to fly massive numbers of ships to a perfect or darn near perfect level.
You are simply being unrealistic and forgetting the whole point of EVE is to form groups as needed to achieve your aims.
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Agreed. Even though my main has something like 155 million SP or something ridiculous like that I can’t fly the hictor, the command ship, and a DPS ship. I can only fly one of those and all the other SP for the other ships is more or less useless at that time. So even with 155 million SP I still need to have other pilots in my fleet just as they need me to be in their fleet.
Dammit Nevyn one of us is going to have to write something soon to disagree about! 
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That’s not my issue, it’s EVEs issue. I was talking about below 10% of the existing ships, calling that “massive number of ships” is just wrong. Also, why would it ever be reasonable to fly a ship below any sufficient skills? In every Alliance, in every Corp and ten times more so in Solo PVP you need sufficient skills that apply to the current ship and situation. If you have no idea what that means, feel free to ask. Regarding T2 weapons, generally decent support skills and such as “near perfect” I get the feeling, you should really do. As I’ve said, do the freaking calculation for that very reasonable amount of ships, that a player could expect to fly in a game he or she pays for. If you are too lazy, well, then don’t.
To only be able to fly a decent amount of ships after YEARS is what is unreasonable. Just like your reply. You have absolutely no idea who I am or how I fly, and still you accuse me of “forgetting the whole part…”. No, I don’t. I fly in groups, do you? Groups have demands in regard to SP. If your SP are too low you are very limited not only in the choice of ships or reasonable situations to use them in, but also in the groups you may join. Because besides what kind of dude you are, they are very interested in wether or not you can be a useful part of the team. Not only that. Maybe you’d want to be a good part of a team - did this thought ever cross your mind? Well… that also needs SP.
Sorry for the tone, but your generic reply, full of unfounded assumptions which you then use trying to discredit what I wrote, is just cheap. Maybe you have enough SP so you don’t have to care about it. Maybe you are just here to say weird things like 20/200+ ships is a “massive number”.
Btw:
I also forgot to mention 20 more of the best EVErgreen statements which are always flat and always true. Wouldn’t you like to make a post to remind me of them?
LoL, if a group is demanding that you have near perfect skills for a ship, laugh at them and find a better group.
Very very few groups have that kind of demand on peoples skills.
I mean ok, if you want to join a group (Which I’m not sure if they are still active but make a good example) like Rooks & Kings you are going to need to be able to fly quite a few of their options at near perfect levels. But you aren’t talking normal gameplay in that case. You are deliberately trying to join the ‘elite’ rather than simply looking at playing the game.
I mean, T2 weapons aren’t ‘necessary’. They sure are nice, but you can fly a ship without them and contribute pretty well still. The support skills apply to about 50% (armour/shield split) of the ships in EVE, so you can’t be pointing at those and complaining about them when saying it takes time to train an individual ship.
Nor is having the ship skill at V necessary, IV is good enough for normal game play in most cases.
Also if we take the list you’ve got there, you’ve deliberately picked a range of ships that uses nearly every single weapon system in EVE, then claimed you need them all at T2 levels. Ignoring the fact that at the point you have all those weapon systems at T2 levels, you also have the skills needed to fly like oh, 90% of the rest of the ships in EVE at similar near perfect skill levels. Titans use all the same base skills as dreads, including the same weapon system, you already have every weapon needed for all 4 marauders and all pre-reqs, you just have to train the Marauder skill, the T2 Logi again, you have everything but the ship skill, so yeah. Your list is a deliberate attempt to inflate the SP requirements to try and make an argument.
@Teckos_Pech 
Most of the time we are attempting to achieve the same end goal, of a fun & dangerous EVE. Just sometimes we disagree on the best direction for that. And that’s ok.
Lol. You have no idea what you are talking about. IV is good enough? No, it isn’t. Not if you actually undock and do something. T2 weapons aren’t necessary? Lol. You’re just wrong. It’s almost funny and almost sad.
Welcome to reality. In order to fly 21 of 294 ships, you do need a lot of SP. Actually for many of the ships alone you need really proper support skills or you won’t be able to fit them, use their strength and so on.
Your entire argument goes like this: “blablablabla it’s not necessary”. And why exactly? Because you expect newer players to feed, because you don’t want them at all or because you want to repeat the 20 most common statements about EVE again and again and feel some pride in “teaching”? If the majority of mankind would carry your logic, we would still be shitting our pants, because toilets are oh so unnecessary. And EVE wouldn’t exist, because computer games are oh so unnessecary.
Titans… Do you know Capital Ships V? The Titan Skill itself? What do you want to do, fly it with Titan I? Do you know Doomsday Operation which you might want to use? Astrometrics V? But sure, yeah, every Dread pilot can enter a Titan… lol. Logi, Marauders… why not fly it all with Lvl 1, right? But wait, since none of this is necessary in your opinion, why would you even suggest more ships with more training time?
I find it outrageous I have to do things.
Pay for ships?
Earn isk?
Skill up?
What the hell CCP…
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Actually you are asking about quite a few more ships in that this, at least implicitly. For example being able to fly the stabber fleet issue well means you could also use the stabber, the rupture and other T1 cruisers pretty well too. If you have good skills for the ospery you’ll probably have decent skills for other Caldari cruisers or you will be “close”. If you had the SP to fly all those ships “well”–i.e. most of the necessary skills to 4 maybe 5, you’d also have opened up lots of of other ships too. For example you have asked for the legion and ishtar, so you are implicitly asking for the zealot and the sacrilege as well as the deimos. You also included the osprey if you are asking for that for 5 then you are very close to the eagle and the cerberus. With the Sin on your list you are literally a few days from the Kronos. With the malediction and the hound you also get the purifier, anathema, and the cheetah. And on and on that list goes.
So yes, that list probably requires millions of SP, but it lets you also fly more than those 21 ships. And it puts many more within a few days of training.
But what you are asking for is not just more SP, but also a reduction in the value of what those of us who have had made the investment in terms of money and time. You did the numbers yourself. To get to 90 million SP you either pay $585 (IIRC) and wait 4 years or you spend $2,200 and get it now. So what is the net present value, in game, of my SP? I have currently 157,549,436 SP on my main. Suppose I want to “start over fresh” that is I want to start a new account and have a new main without any of the baggage of his employment history (which isn’t Bad™, but hey…lets set that aside). I could suck out about 315 full injectors. If I did the math right I could start over with a character with over 94 million SP, a vast amount of wealth and no history at all. Does that have value in game? Absolutely. If you want to argue “No.” Go ahead, but the conversation is then done because there is no way for us to bridge that kind of a chasm.
So people who say, “I want to fly Zluq’s list of ships” (which is actually bigger than it is) they want to degrade the current in game value of SP.
That seems pretty obvious to me. So, if you want to justify this the question shifts over to why. And the why is: you have to wait or pay a premium to use that list of ships and that is…
I have seen a laundry list of reasons for this that has spanned 3 versions of these forums. When I was a new guy I saw these arguments (I didn’t participate) when I was a “veteran” I saw these arguments. And I still see them as a “bitter veteran”. And to be perfectly honest all of the reasons smack of, “It is good for me I don’t care about the rest of you or…well really even something like game balance.”
And lets not forget that when many requirements were actually “steeper” the game was growing. So please, spare the rest of us the notion that “gating is causing people to quit”. You could try a more subtle argument, but please show us some decent evidence and not some pie in the sky rhetoric.
@Nevyn_Auscent! How dare you, you are using one of those EVErgreen cliches! Shame on you. Forget that it is true. And forget that your first one is what CCP is looking to promote (people playing in groups).
In some groups it is and/or was. When I was in EXE it was mandatory for BS to have T2 large guns. Of course, if you didn’t have those you could join the support fleet (which was often just as much if not more fun). But these days with tiericide that has become much less of a thing. Sometimes you need T2 guns, sometimes you don’t.
Tiericide. CCP has made “flattened” things out. Used to be in the past that yes, T2 was of a requirement, but that has eased up quite a bit. Even now sitting in my hangar in 1DQ are a number of T1 ships. Some even with T1 “named” guns.
CCP has given a way for you to use that list of ships, BTW. Your beef is that you have to pay a premium to do it. Instead it looks very much like you want to take the value of my SP and that of others and make yourself better off.
Oh and if you have the SP to use the Tanny and the Nag, you are literally a few weeks away from adding the Nid and Moros. Your list could, in short order, include 4 capital ships. That kind of is asking for alot.
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Come on, you can do better than that.
No. I gave you an example list of ships that I might want to fly. What do I care that I could others too, that I don’t need or don’t want. Fact is, for these 21 ships I’d need a lot of SP. Feel free to put together another list with below 10% of the overall number of hulls, that provides a decent amount of choices in this game. I’m curious what you come up with. Disclaimer: I personally already have proper (while mostly not perfect) skills for all the ships in that example list - and I know from personal experience the difference between having applicable skills at III, IV or V. It is huge.
As a sidenote, the Kronos needs the Marauder Skill, which takes about 40 days to V and it needs V.
I get the strong impression, that this is actually the core of your worry. You are right about the cost, but wrong about what it means. If you look into the ToS you’ll find that you pay for playing the game. By being a long-term subscriber you are not however entitled to the game staying like it is. If your only reason to pay for EVE has been to collect Skillpoints over years and you didn’t use it to have fun, that was your decision and no one owes you compensation for that, should the SP progression ever speed up.
No. For SP traders it wouldn’t change anything, as the injector farms would also produce more SP/month. Everyone who plays the game would profit from it too, older and newer players alike. It is only the SP that are currently not traded who would keep their use-value, while losing trade-value, but since they are not traded, this is a made up issue. Again, you did pay for game time all those years, not for a guarantee on price stability in the SP market. If CCP ever touched this and decided the compensate older players, they could find a way to do that, but that’s leading too far off into speculation.
If you were really perfectly honest, it is you who knows that the current state of things is good for you and you don’t care about the rest and that’s why you want to keep things like they are, no matter the implications. CCP has too long appeased to players who implicitely threaten them to not speed up SP progression or… It’s time this changes. These players have nothing in their backhand. They will adapt or cry, then adapt.
I didn’t speak about any of that, why do you? Is it comfortable to put arguments into other peoples mouth in order to have the counter-argument already at hand? Does it make you feel like you’ve accomplished something in this discussion?
Regarding this topic, it is entirely up to CCP to find out if and what influence the speed of SP progression has on player retention or getting new players to join the game. And only if they want, not because you ask them to. One should not forget, that this could change over time, e.g. if there is an issue in the average SP difference between older and newer player it will escalate over the years. If that is a problem or not, is for CCP to decide. New player comments over the years suggest that it is, old player comments over the years suggest that it isn’t - apart from a few of either side who have the opposite opinion. If you look on the motivation behind either, it seems pretty clear that new players would like to have more options earlier on, older players would like to keep the privelege of having a giant SP advantage over others. Either is understandable.
If CCP ever takes a look at this and finds that they could actually reach a greater audience if getting into 21 ships wouldn’t cost $2200, the decision of what to do about this, would be purely based on economic criteria: how many old players would leave in rage? How many old players who think about leaving due to boredom, would stay because of more challenges due to more players? How many more new players do we estimate we could win over? How many more Omega subscriptions could we get? If CCP deems it necessary to do such an enquiry, they will - if not, they won’t. You being afraid of that it could happen, leads you to prematurely cry and thrash out. Why not chill unless it happens?
Give some examples of where T2 weapons are not giving a massive advantage over someone who doesn’t have T2 skills and has to use Meta T1.
You can sell your SP now and you won’t lose out on anything. You didn’t pay for SP, you paid for playing the game. If that wasn’t clear, read the ToS. In a game where the concentration of wealth and SP is so far advanced, CCP has done some things to easen the entry level barrier for new pilots in comparision to the wall they face. Why did they do it? Well I guess because they’ve found some indicators that running a more-or-less sandboxy game over the course of 15 years without resetting everything to Zero every few years, has the effect that fun competition turns into no-fun obvious outcome. However, I personally think they have approached this half-heartetly, because they feel trapped by older players empty threats of rage quits. SP is just one of the topics and really the one most easy to solve. CCP should find some more courage and all will be fine.
Older players who don’t want to sit lazy on their past accomplishments, but still look for challenges and a lively gameplay will welcome faster progression of new ones. If you are not ready to be thrown in the mud-pit again by CCP, well how about sitting on the porch and telling stories of how you used to have more SP than others and you liked to tell people stories about how SP are overrated while you had 151 Million of them?
p.s. I get that you think protectionism is the best solution for you and that you want CCP as the state to enforce it. If you can get ahead of your conservatism, you might find that it has advantages even for you. If you are a trader for instance, you would surely profit.
Why do I get the feeling this thread isn’t about the original subject any more…
The original question was wether or not a Sub or Alpha injectors are more efficient. So it came to question which metrics to use for efficiency - time, money? While you chose a title that sounded like a question, your opening post showed that you had already done the math and now it was about the metrics. If you start discussing these and the thread catches any momentum, you will end up having discussions about the value of these metrics. For instance the people who wrote in direct reply to you, that having to log in every day in order to apply the Alpha Injector should be seen as part of the efficiency-calculation. And as another example the question of what SP actually provide.
But yeah, this whole thing is getting a bit specific and maybe it has run its course.
I don’t care. That list also allows you to use others. What you want is irrelevant in what I have written is a fact. Maybe that is why the training time is steeper than you think it should be…maybe?
Because it is not just 21 ships, but more. Being able to fly the heron and the kestrel means you can fly all the T1 frigates. Adding on the malediction and the hound opens up the anathema, the purifier and possibly the buzzard if you train Caldari frigate to 5.
No it doesn’t. I’ve used the kronos just fine with IV for HS missions.
I think CCP is aware of the fact that if they massively reduce the value of those SP they’ll likely lose alot of subscribers. And for what…some players who don’t have the patience anyways? You have completely left this point unanswered. Completely.
Yes. You want to reduce the value of SP. This is indisputable and suggests you are wildly out of touch with reality here.
Considering your views on economics that you think this way is unsurprising. Oh, and you are wrong. Giving everyone a massive injection of SP would clearly have an impact on the SP market. Demand would drop and supply would likely increase meaning the price would go down…well if you are rational and do not adhere to Marxist nonsense that is.
CCP understands the value of a stable economic system…which clearly you do not. Case closed, IMO.
I think screwing up incentives and destabilizing the market is stupid beyond belief…but then again given your Marxist leanings nobody should be shocked by that. Are you going to advocate for the removal of ISK next? That would be completely in line with Marx.
Because it undermines your nonsense. When the training times were more rigorous the game was growing in terms of PCU.
I did no such thing. I merely noted a fact that that when these requirements were steeper the game was growing. As the the game has in some ways gotten easier that trend has changed direction.
You do know what tiericide means right? It flattens out the differences between module and ship tiers. That is the primacy of T2 has been watered down. It has been an aspect of design philosophy for quite some time. Does it negate that advantage of T2? No, but it certainly reduces the advantage to a point where T1 is viable in fleet doctrines–i.e. your objections about T2 weapons has been seriously undermined.
I will if CCP goes in a direction like you are advocating. And what are the benefits?
SP are not much of an accomplishment to be quite honest. Anyone impressed I have 157 million SP is being silly. In fact, I typically have more SP than the FCs I fly under.* That’s fine, I know I’d make a terrible FC.
This isn’t protectionism. It is noting that people have invested both time and money into something and arbitrarily taking it away to benefit others who might not even stay with the game beyond a few months is not a wise prescription. It is more like ensuring property rights (yes, I know my SP are not my property hence the work ‘like’ in that sentence).
Instead of this pie-in-sky rhetoric why don’t you fecking detail some of these awesome benefits?
Because you are smart?
*Fun fact/anecdote: one FC I was flying under had less SP than I have in spaceship command. Didn’t bother him and it didn’t bother me. He had the talent for being and FC…I happened to get into the game before he did. That is all. And our working together along with everyone else in the fleet meant we all had fun…newbies and bitter vets alike.
Your false knowledge about ships is getting embarassing.
So you have one specific usecase where it was okay for you and from that you conclude Marauders LVL IV would be just fine. Try to think outside of your own box if you can.
If CCP were to increase the value of subscriptions by granting people a faster skill progression they would win customers. Maybe lose you. Yeah okay, another “meh meh meh I will leave if they do that” empty threat.
Unbased assumption. Obviously people who want to progress their SP faster want to be more active in the game. That’s a good thing. You are the promoter of standstill. And that has nothing to do with productive patience.
If you were to make your point, one might be able to answer it. If possible don’t just throw some unproven assumption around, but at least base it a bit on any kind of data, cause that will help to argue for or against your point.
No. I want to increase the value of subscription based game time for the present time. It is of no use that you live in the past, not even for yourself. New players might be more motivated to have 2nd and 3rd paying accounts, if they progress quick enough to be useful. That could increase the demand for SP. On the other hand, if it has the side-effect of less Skill Injectors being bought: I don’t care. Things in EVE change all the time, markets rise and fall with a Dev Blog. Are you preemptively salty about it: yes. Does it matter: no.
So what? No one gave you any guarantess that you can profit from that forever. Grow up.
Maybe in your country that works as a homicide argument. Also, it is kind of funny how someone who regularly links only the most prosaic so-called “economists” and not even proper pro-capitalist theorists (too hard to read for you?), it might help to actually show a bit of humbleness towards someone who has written more books than you probably ever read in your life and who was clearly one of the most influential analytsts of modern times. Before you call what he wrote “nonsense”, how about you read a few of his books and try to understand any of it and then come back and use reason rather than insult.
Apart from the fact that you try to utilize CCPs name for your own ideas, which is cheap and wrong, you’re being protectionist again and furthermore insinuate that the system would become unstable with people having faster SP progression. Are you a SP trader who is worried about his personal profit?
Again, I can only recommend you read some of it, you clearly have no ideas what he said. I mean, even start with the Wikipedia page if you are too lazy for anything else and you will understand that your hate prevents you from knowing even about the basic concepts.
You trying to bring out the anti-communist hammer just proves that you’ve run out of real arguments and instead try to make this whole thing about ideologies. Stay on the point or open a new thread. Also, you are the one being protectionist here, no one else. You want CCP to keep you safe. Well… you can always hope.
Yes you did put arguments in my mouth that I didn’t bring. You pretended that I was saying “people leave the game because of X”, which I didn’t and after re-reading what I wrote, I fail to see how anyone on LSD with the fantasy of a 1000 people could find that in there. You just made it up, tried to pin it on me, to then counter-prove. It’s one of the oldest and lamest rhetorical tricks - shame on you.
You were making a specific statement and I was asking a specific question: give me a few examples in which someone using T2 weapons on a ship doesn’t have a massive advantage over someone who has T1 skills ans uses T1 weapons on the same hull. Because that is what you stated. Retreating to pseudo-philosophical debate about what tiercide means, won’t distract anyone that you fail to prove your claim.
Faster SP progression means higher chance for people to try out different things, because they can afford doing so. That again means higher chance for more types of emerging gameplay on every level, more competition, possibly more change in the EVE-wide politcal constellations, higher demand for different kind of ships and modules, generally more activity due to people being able to do faster what they want to do. Already the time to learn mechanics and such is much shorter than acquiring the SP to do that stuff.
Or, if you ask for yourself: the advantage of selling your SP is that you will get ISK for them, which you can use to buy something. \o/
And you want CCP to protect that investment, despite the fact that they never gave you any such guarantee. Hence, protectionism. I get it, you don’t want to see yourself as one of those, but you are, just like every other “freedom of the market” souffleur when progress would mean to endanger their traditional way of income.
Exactly. So what do you even whine about?
Well I don’t know about that, but taken the “knowledge” you show about ships, I wouldn’t be surprised if that is accurate.
You are embarrassing yourself. Consider the option of not posting anymore.
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The final words of the one who has proven to have no arguments but only insults. Bye.
FYI, I have. It is nonsense. Marx is one of those people who believes in historicism and it is just nonsense by and large.
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Uhhh…no. Giving people SP is not progression it is a lump sum transfer at the expense of others.
Completely off of the deep end.
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I CAN’T FLY 99% of the hulls in the game RIGHT NOW based on this list of arbitrary ships that encompasses every weapon system in the game and 85% of the racial ship skills
RIGHT NOW!
Pathetic.
Ever see a pack of frigates kill a carrier? I have it doesn’t even take that many.
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Indeed…the bottom line here is that one can gain an advantage if they pay a premium…but that has always been the case since CCP allowed character trading way, way back in what…2007? So nothing to see here, move on and let the fecking thread die.
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