Nah
Let him doxx…
Won’t be a major loss to the game either way
1 Like
That is exactly what I was refering to.
I totally understand this point of view and I say this a possible interpretation, but not the only one. I add that this interpretation may not make sense from a miner point of view, who may face gankers who will destroy his procurer as well as his covetor.
I agree that if one miner uses procurer, it will require more catalyst to kill him and as such he will statistically be ganked less often. However this will not protect him 100% and this may also be false if he is in a team and all of them decide to switch from covetor to procurer : gankers will have to kill procs instead of covetor.
So yes, I think if you are a more difficult target than your neighbor, you will likely less be ganked. But in the end if you are alone or if everybody does the same thing, you may get ganked as much. And if somebody wants to gank YOU, then this won’t change a thing.
I’m not saying this interpretation is right, and yours is wrong ; I say from different point of view you will understand the same thing in different ways. And in one interpretation, using a procurer is not a choice.
The causation you are making is “more procurer = less gank”, based on zkb data. But those data may as well be the result of more complex process, we can’t affirm that causation without a deep and active study.
If you find a thread you where reading just yesterday with 100+ new posts the next day…
… you don’t have to scroll down to know it got salvoshd.
RIP you salvoshd thread.
3 Likes
Okay, first I never said a tanked procurer is 100% protection against being ganked. It does happen. Second, the idea here is that using a procurer/skiff raises th costs of ganking–i.e. you need more people is a type of cost. In a well tanked proc (94k in EHP) can 1 guy gank it in a catalyst? No. Two guys? No. Three guys? No. Four guys? No. Five guys? No. And it depends on where you are mining. In a 0.5 system with CONCORD pulled then it will take about 6 guys assuming they can hit 700 DPS. Without having CONCORD pulled the gankers will likely need 8 guys…with nearly maxed out skills. Dialing back to 615 DPS and now it is 9 guys. A 0.6 system without CONCORD the number jumps to 11.
If you have every sat around waiting for a fleet to be sufficiently filled out that takes time. Granted 11 vs. 110 is quite a big difference, but usually if you are getting around 11 guys in catalysts together you might want to consider pushing the numbers a bit and look for freighters to gank.
Whoa, whoa, whoa…
No. I did not say that. That is your interpretation. A more accurate statement is:
If a pilot uses a procurer then that pilot is less likely to be ganked.
Do you comprehend the difference? Your statement is a global/population level statement, mine is at the level of the individual. You are extrapolating from what I have written. This is not my problem that is your problem.
It is entirely possible that if everyone switches over to procurers and skiffs they might get ganked just as much. Personally, I doubt this. The higher costs, both in terms of ISK, and in terms of the number of pilots necessary makes this view less likely IMO.
That’s possible. But given what I’ve seen in game and what I’ve done in game, and what I see on the killboards, and what we know about the tanks of these ships it seems unlikely.
That’s exaclty what I meant. “more procurer = less gank” for ONE player. More procurers over several sessions of gameplay that is.
Which I alread agreed on :
Ganking already does have a set cooldown of 15 min and after that there is fatigue of sec status as i’m sure others have posted, this of course can be circumvented with a bit of isk for tags or have the pods roam the gates and they are given ships by others in the target system.
The isk earned by the gankers is directly influenced by EVE players. If players wouldn’t carry 10 bil of materials in their cargo in one trip the gankers wouldn’t get to roll the dice on looting all that loot.
EVE as a whole is too peaceful and has been for years, ganking is a necessary evil to keep up consumption demand.
Given the few skiff/proc ganks. Given that we have seen skiffs/procs are used this seems reasonable. Yet you claim otherwise without a shred of evidence.
It doesn’t mean ganking is impossible. Nor that everyone should use a proc/skiff. Just that it is a viable strategy for players to try.
Can you find the figures ccp gave us some time back about which barges were used how much?
No, and that would be wonderful to have. If anyone could find that it would be quite helpful.
And to be clear here.
I am not saying: Go mine in a skiff/proc and you’ll never be ganked again. I am saying, if you mine in a skiff/proc you’ll be less likely to be ganked and maybe have a better chance of surviving the gank. That is, it is a viable strategy that a player can consider given how he wants to mine. If he wants max ISK/hour and wants to watch local and grid and be alert the whole time…then go with yield. If not, consider the skiff/proc strategy as an alternative. Will you never get ganked? No. Might you mine for an extended period before you are ganked–i.e. longer than in a covetor, retriever, or even a mackinaw? Yeah, probably.
That’s it. That is all I am saying.
https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/6605232/#post6605232
Those numbers are not my experience in highsec (and I have spent a lot of time scouting) but are plausible as an aggregate of all of New Eden.
1 Like
Thank you @Black_Pedro.
Hmmm…22%. Okay, so do we see 22% of the ganked mining ships being skiffs/procs? Doesn’t look like it. Therefore I think it is likley that those ganking mining ships are not ganking randomly. IDK, maybe @EveDataRules can pull such data.
Oh, nowhere near. Many days pass with zero proc/Skiff ganks while there are usually a dozen or a few of the other barges each day.
I think I am missing the nuance of this discussion. These two tanked mining ships very rarely get exploded illegally. They also mine slightly less. The game for you as the resource gatherer is to balance yield with defence to maximize your profit in an environment where other players are trying to stop you. This is the basic design of the game.
Whatever ship you choose you will be gathering more resources than if you throw up your hands and declare that because there is a non-zero chance you may explode it isn’t worth undocking. Unless you know for certain there is a fleet of gankers waiting for you on the undock, it is almost always better to undock and mine something than to hide in the station because of the tiny percent chance you will fall victim to a random gank. And that chance is almost too negligible to consider if you fly a tanked proc/Skiff (or if you fly anything else and just pay attention).
1 Like
Miners may be periodically swapping out what vessels they use, depending on what risks they feel they are at on that day, or perhaps if they have a quota they have to reach on that particular day.
Stats on what vessels are more popular would be interesting, but largely academic I think.
I don’t. I claim you can still be wrong when you say “this is reasonnable”, because “reasonnable” here means “the only way I can understand this” ; but those terms are not the same thing.
We don’t have a real study of which ships are used, and a double-blind test of who gets more ganked when using a covetor than a procurer ; so we can’t affirm procurer->less ganked.
Note that the study of ships which are used does not allow to make any causation. Only a study specifically designed to that causation can. The study of ships used and ships ganked could only help us say “statistically, procurer are less ganked per hour of mining than covetor in the context of our study” ; which is a correlation, not a causation.
OK I (after that) read the link to mining barges.
note this is in volume, so procurer may actually be used more than shown. This is total volume extracted, I don’t know how ice/gas/ore volume compare.
Also to my experience retriever is best ship when you want to mine in null sec, because your fleet of [warning ! irony] 500 mining bots (among them,me dom major arrogance and salvos) [/warning] can more easily wait when you cycle between them to drop the loot in the porpoise, while still much less expensive than T2 so even if you lose a few, your mining session is good ik positive.
It’s a strategy. It is only wrong in the sense that in different contexts it my not be a good strategy. Hell, Salvos is right in that players can use mixed strategies.
And no your interpretation of reasonable is anything but reasonable. Reasonable means it can work.
What have we seen? Miners use procs/skiffs 22% of the time. Ganking is not random in the sense that the ganker randomizes over all mining ships. Gankied procs/skiffs are rare things on kill boards. As such using a proc/skiff to reduce the possibility of being ganked is a viable strategy. And to be clear that means it is one strategy among other strategies.
No we don’t so what. People often have to formulate strategies based on partial information. In fact that is pretty much the norm both in and out of game.
And based on that partial information it looks alot like it would reduce the risk of getting ganked.
It certainly does answer the question of whether miners use procs/skiffs. It makes the claim of random ganking (over all mining ships) less likely, or at least successful ganking.
And we know how ganking works in terms of mechanics. We know CONCORD response times. We can calculate EHP under different fits. We can postulate different DPS values. And thus determine the number of gankers needed to gank different ships with different fits in different systems and we see the requirements go up for procs/skiffs. Hell we can even look at ISK/hour.
That is pretty good information to start formulating strategies. Is there one strategy that is good for all miners or even just HS miners? Now for that we’d need alot more information and the answer is probably no. But procs/skiffs are a viable alternative.
If there was one perfect vessel, with one perfect fit, everyone would be flying it.
Choose a vessel for cost, and fit it for yield or tank.
The catalyst
13m for a t2 (or somewhere like that
And get forum posts like these which are far more valuable than isk itself 
no.
We got a data extracted by people having access to it, stating that 22% of the ore mined in Eve online during the february month was extracted by proc or skiffs.
Any other affirmation from you, ie time used, percentage in HS, is only speculation.
And as such, people who have different informations than yours do not considerate the same choice -.-
no. Based on that partial information, it looks like there are less procurers ganked. anything else is personal interpretation.
But those strategies will only hold for people who assumed the data.
When you say “something is likely” actually you don’t prove anything, just express your opinion. And somebody else, with a different opinion, will find it “not likely”.
You may as well be totally wrong when you think something is “likely”.
Looking at my personal informations about HS, it is “likely” that nobody is ever killed in HS.
We can even talk about it between other NS people and all agree with that.
This will be skewed by how utilized the ships are and also that we just had burn jita going on.
Ganked mining ships: N=2,726 over 120 days.
4 Likes
Seems pretty safe to say that mining in a procurer or a skiff does limit one’s risk to ganking. Less than 2% of the mining ship ganks are procs/skiffs and yet they produce 22% of the ore. Either that is a really small number of ships mining a Hell of a lot or gankers prefer retrievers, ventures and mackinaws over procs/skiffs.
2 Likes