It is time to disband EDENCOM

Yes, as amarrian I am willing to work with the inferior lot to purge something so vicious and nefarious as the Triglavians.

That’s no way to talk about the Khanid. :stuck_out_tongue:

EDENCOM needs to take the offensive and put up better defenses in the systems around those lost to the Triglavians, without an effective way to navigate through Triglavian systems any attack will be too limited in scope and liable to be outmaneuvered or denied battle altogether.

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It would be weak to say that EDENCOM needs to be disbanded without self reflecting on how we as capsuleer’s failed our respective factions. Many fought in the invasions claiming spoils and glory, others fought to defend their respective space.

But in the end when the triglavians gained their 27 systems how many went back to their respective homes to strum up a defense against invading triglavians coming from wormholes?
Not enough. Not enough of us truly cared about eliminating the triglavian threat.

As capsuleers fighting against the Triglavians we collectively ran around the entire cluster, fighting Triglavians and their supporters in both high and low security space, keeping fleets up basically twenty-four hours a day whenever there was an invasion. We lost twenty-seven systems to liminality but managed to win in far more systems than we lost.

The majority of the losses we had can be blamed on the Caldari State being almost entirely unable to put up anything even remotely resembling resistance to the Triglavians. This was not our fault. People showed up and fought hard, even managing to win in a few Caldari systems here and there despite the State’s best efforts to sabotage itself.

Capsuleers are quite powerful. Those of us designated as ‘independent capsuleers’ can accomplish a lot if we put our minds to it. Especially when groups of us organize well amongst themselves. But the empires have access to resources and military might that we can only dream of. It is not practically possible for most if any groups of independent capsuleers to take over an empire’s wormhole response jobs full time. It would be however trivial for the empires to do so. At all times, they have military vessels in systems they control. In high security systems, there’s so much defense you can rarely go through a system without seeing military ships stationed on gates. Yet for some reason, these ships do not protect their space when it comes to the Triglavians.

Maybe the State is too pathetic to defend itself, but the other three empires proved that their forces can generally at least fight Triglavians to a stalemate even in full blown invasion. It’s just, for some reason, EDENCOM doesn’t seem to ever assign the fleets under its banner to responding to these encroaching Triglavians. It’s absurd. The most influential thing we can do as independent capsuleers if we honestly want to address the problem, is put pressure on the empires, EDENCOM, and all of CONCORD to each do their part and work to hold them accountable when they don’t. I’m not saying to not shoot at Triglavians, but blaming the tiny subset of indepedent capsuleers who choose to have loyalties because we don’t drop everything and spend twenty-four hours a day responding to Triglavians coming out of wormholes when the various empires each also still have other problems that we’re often expected to deal with is absurd.

So don’t give me any of this:

So many of us poured so much work into fighting the invasions. People worked with individuals they hated, defended empires they’ve done nothing but fight against before in order to ensure their loyalists reciprocated and defended their own homes, and sacrificed their own well being far more often than people could ever be reasonably expected to do.

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I hate it but I find myself agreeing with Elsebeth as well. If EDENCOM won’t act, what are they even doing with all the resources and personnel seconded to them?! We can see with our own eyes that they’re not blocking Collective forces from using wormholes travelling from Pochven and the gate network around their smaller footholds. The Minors and other at-risk systems 100% need the travel warnings put back in if they’re staying like this. EDENCOM aren’t even doing their jobs as traffics cops at this point!

And while we’re at it… you could almost accuse the dual-standings issue of being collaboration at this point. I’d love to know who amidst the EDENCOM higher-ups made the call to share standing gains derived from the Rogue Drones and Drifters… One might almost say they’re showing signs of being a double agent? Especially given they haven’t commented on it at all. Mighty suspicious! I was expecting some sort of “Oh no the Rogue Drones are really bad please go shoot them” announcement to explain it - the silence on this issue is ominous and implicating.

As for the lack of proper empire response… Where is the Krirald Tribal Resistance Army??

“The Minmatar Republic considers all territories of Skarkon system to now fall under the direct jurisdiction of the Skarkon Tribal Resistance Army, commanded by Valklear General Kril Efrit,”

Things are a bloody mess in Skarkon, but is Krir simply being abandoned? With the Republic and EDENCOM seemingly unwilling or unable to take back it’s systems - is it time to call on the so-called “Elder Fleets”?

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That doesn’t discredit any of that, or that wasn’t what I was trying to aim at doing.

I also fought in invasions, maybe not as many as I could have, but at the end of the day capsuleer’s truly have the ability to shape their own fate along with others. Having a sheer amount of military is fine but what happens when you lose that, who will defend k-space after that?

Theoretically, what happens when the empires send their military to squash the triglavian threat who do you have left to defend their respective space if they lose. It isn’t as simple as “bigger fleets” win wars when dealing with mortal life, especially against a threat we don’t 100% know.

We are the perfect weapons against this threat as capsuleer’s, but we shouldn’t have to risk mortal life, and in the end THEY have more at risk than WE do.

The thing is that the Empires couldn’t place all their bets on Capssuleers being symptomatic enough or motivated enough to shoulder all the work and defend their space.

The Empires had to risk mortal life, depending entirely on independent Capsuleers to lock down your systems with no backup from the official military forces suppose to be defending these sectors in the first place is not really the smartest idea. Not to mention that the Collective is willing to toss mortal forces in AND enlist the help of kybernauts.

To me, Capsuleers were essential only in countering the efforts of Kybernauts, this was still a war between conventional forces of the Trigs and the Empires. We were just specialists called in to do surgical strikes to hamper the enemy’s ability.

30 or 50 Capsuleers alone won’t be able to lock down an entire system from invading forces backed by Capsuleer aid without a conventional force to swell in size and lay down some foritfcations and hold the line were we aren’t currently at. At the same time, if it was soley up to Capsuleers to be the line of defense? Capsuleers would have to dedicate even more than they did to secure just one system out of multiple that were being striked at.

Also I’m willing to bet it would make Capsuleers that less likely to even help if the Empires were just gonna laze about and not pull any weight in defending their own space. It’s easy to say now that the Invasion is over that you’d be more than happy to dedicate your entire existence as a Capsuleer to holding the line no matter what to save mortal life. However, even with the aid of the Navy, these fights were already exhausting and frustrating struggles.

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You know the Navies have capsuleers, too, right? Any one of them could have put up more of a defense than all the capsuleers in the cluster, combined, could have managed. And they could have done it with less than a tithe of their strength.

They claim they deployed capital ships, but there really wasn’t any sign of a significant deployment. There wasn’t even an indication of investing 0.01 percent of the power that fought in M2-XFE last month. The Caldari could have put a half-dozen Wyverns and two dozen Minokawas in each of those systems, and swatted down Trigs like flies. And they could have done it without a meaningful impact on their operational capabilities.

Don’t put the failure on eggers. Independent capsuleer performance was everything it should have been. If the Naval capsuleers had been deployed in similar numbers, the Trigs would not have taken a single system.

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I do know that navies have capsuleers as well, but capsuleer’s have more freedom and less bureaucracy they have to deal with to help with the defense.

I also recognize that there are many fighting inside pochven as we speak and they are navy. I recognize them for doing what I’m currently not doing right now.

I guess I’d rather share the blame then just point at the people who decided to take the less amount of risk but again, they have still at the end of the day have to risk more than we do.

Do they? We die, just like they do. And if you’re going to invoke that ‘capsuleers are immortal’ ■■■■■■■■, Navy baseliners also get their wetware backed up, especially during ‘hazardous duty’ periods. They’re just as ‘immortal’ as we are. Which is to say, neither of us are, but that’s a totally different discussion.

But isn’t that precisely what EDENCOM was created to do? Cut through the red tape by putting all those forces directly into the ‘stop the Trigs’ mission? Let me see if I can lay out the steps that illustrate the flaw in your argument:

  1. CONCORD determined there was too much bureaucracy preventing the empire navies from coordinating to fight the Trigs.
  2. So, in order to streamline the process and reduce the bureaucracy, CONCORD created a new bureaucracy to centralize command, control, and logistics.
  3. The new bureaucracy failed, in pretty much every State system that wasn’t aggressively defended by independent capsuleers.
  4. That same new bureaucracy is utterly failing to even engage the Trigs in systems they claim to have fortified.
  5. The empire navies refuse to engage the Trigs, quite probably because the empire chain-of-command structures either resent the new bureaucracy taking away some of their ships, or out of the classic bureaucratic ‘it’s not OUR job, talk to EDENCOM’ mindset.
  6. However, we shouldn’t blame the new bureaucracy and dismantle it, because there was too much bureaucracy in the way.

Wouldn’t ‘there was too much bureaucracy’ be an argument in favor of dismantling the new-and-ineffectual bureaucracy?

The failure was on the part of EDENCOM. It continues to be on the part of EDENCOM. Blaming anyone else for EDENCOM’s failure is just… dumb.

I mean, not for nothing, but I can understand why the Caldari wouldn’t want Gallente ships in the State, and vice versa. Same for the Amarr / Minmatar issues. But surely, EDENCOM should have been competent enough to say, coordinate State/Republic joint operations, or Fed/Empire fleet work, so as to make sure the logistics platforms were compatible, while letting the different empires’ strengths cover for one another’s weaknesses?

Add just a few Huginns or even Bellicoses—Vigils, even!—into the State fleets, and the missiles they just would not shift away from become massively more effective. They put all those forces under one chain of command, but that chain of command never actually integrated them.

So what good is EDENCOM, again?

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It’s understandable that Triglavians might want Rogue Drones to be destroyed only in Pochven. I have tried it, killing them both in Pochven and outside. And you know, what is amusing? EDENCOM likes Rogue Drones being destroyed only in Pochven as well!

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