July Release - Strategic Cruisers

[Frostys_Virpio]

@Rek_Seven

Incorrect. The loki did not have a good subsystem for HAMs like is does now.

Loki =/= Proteus.

[Rek_Seven]

Start from the beginning of this conversation as i think you don’t understand what is being said.

[Frostys_Virpio]

The Proteus was not being used in EVE just because it could project a whole 1k DPS withing 5km. It had many uses. The weapon system is not what got broken on the Prot so telling me the Loki has a new one is irrelevant. We used to use them as a mainline doctrine and as support on other doctrine. Both of them didn’t use the 1k dps argument. We pretty much stopped using them because the while package is underwhelming. Even if you gave it more DPS, it would still not be taken because the whole package is lacking.

[Rek_Seven]

It sounds like you are comparing T3C’s to all other ships in game where i’m just comparing T3 to T3… Totally different argument.

If this is not the case and you replaced the Proteus in your doctrine with another T3, please tell me which T3 and your reasons for choosing it.

[Frostys_Virpio]

Ship don’t exist in a vacuum nor do they exist only within their class. They will of course always get compared to anything that can fulfill the same role.

[Rek_Seven]

Of course but that doesn’t mean you can’t compare ships within the same class and discuss why one is worse than the others.

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Rek_Seven

I get what you are saying and i agree that not every T3 has to be good in all areas but honestly, what is the Proteus good at now?

Honestly not sure, I haven’t sat down and done a comprehensive analysis of all the T3s and I have no interest in doing so, but it’s definitely being used for something considering it’s third out of the four T3s for kills in the last month.

@Rek_Seven

It used to be good because it could deal 1k plus dps at close range… but now all the others can do that while being 20k away from the target! i.e in neut, and scram range.

I don’t have access to numbers in front of me right this moment but I’m pretty sure the Proteus still wins on DPS what with Blasters still having the highest base DPS out of the available medium weapons. 1k DPS isn’t some magical break point, more DPS is still better.

@Rek_Seven

When mentioning zkillboard stats I think you are misinterpreting me saying “the Proteus is weaker than the rest” as saying “the Proteus is ■■■■ and nobody is flying it”.

These two things tend to go hand in hand though. As Fozzie said recently, the Eve playerbase is fairly rational as a collective group. If something’s bad people stop using it, but the Proteus isn’t seeing that. It has a big drop off right after the changes because it was no longer stupidly OP, but every T3 except the Loki saw a drop off like that.

If it was actually bad, even compared to the other T3s, it wouldn’t be sitting third for overall usage, and the main reason the Tengu is in second seems to be heavy PvE usage which has continued from before the changes.

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Rek_Seven

Instead of arguing whether the Proteus is weaker or not, i’ll just state what i feel CCP should have done to give the Proteus the same capless weapon advantages as the others, as it’s pretty simple!

Increase drone damage (or allow it to use 5 heavy drones) and hit-points on the drone sub and then remove the turret bones.

This would give it the same pre-oveheated damage as a T3 using HAMs and the trade off for not being able to overheat would be the damage projection (e.g. drone control range).

CCP aren’t going to do that because that makes it another Gallente Heavy Drone boat in an already pretty crowded weapons space. We’ve already got the VNI, Ishtar, Eos, Dominix, and Dominix Navy Issue for 5-drone Heavy Drone boats. At that point the Proteus is either flat better than one of those in some significant way or it doesn’t get used with that weapon option. At least the split-weapons configuration does something none of those hulls that directly compete with the Proteus are doing (namely the VNI and Ishtar).

[Rek_Seven]

The DPS is slightly higher but you have dramatically reduced range with blasters… I never said the proteus is so bad that people are extracting all the sp they have sunk into it and stopped flying it… Neut immunity (partly) is a MASSIVE advantage…

I’m tired of repeating myself and arguing with people who are talking about different issues. If there is a good argument for why the proreus’ capless weapon system should not be as good as the rest i’m all ears but for now, fly safe o/

[Cade_Windstalker]

Neut immunity (on guns) is situationally a significant advantage. If you’re not getting neuted it doesn’t matter. If the neut pressure isn’t enough to significantly impact you it barely matters. Ditto if your fit mitigates it in some way or another.

You seem to be fixated on this idea that shooting guns requiring capacitor is a crippling disadvantage for these things. That’s an overly broad statement by a few light-years.

The Proteus’ drones shouldn’t be “as good as” the others, at least in terms of raw DPS, because that’s not what they’re there for, they don’t need to be, and they already have other advantages inherent to drones besides not using cap.

Yes, cap is life, but you seem to have taken that way too far here. The Proteus is, by every metric I’ve been able to find, performing just fine right now. The only T3Cs having problems at present are the Loki, which is OP, and the Tengu which is apparently still pretty amazing for PvE, and I’m not sure I’d call the latter a problem.

[Tak_Goden]

Is it time to do away with the skill loss for T3 cruiser destruction?

I’ll admit a bit of ignorance at game mechanics, folks like Fozzie are way better at this balance stuff than I am for sure.

However I gently submit, that in my, admittedly myopic, view my tengu just is not as powerful as it used to be. Since the T3s were seemingly reduced in power (nerfed) I think it may be fair to consider doing away with the skill loss penalty.

There are plenty of other very powerful ships in the game that do not have that penalty. Including T3 destroyers (I think).

Tl;Dr I respectfully submit that since the T3 cruisers got a (most certainly needed) nerf, the consequences for losing one should be lightened as well.

[Erethond]

It is a rather meaningless penalty currently either way. Lose a skill level, buy a small injector, get that skill back. Why not just make the ship a bit more expensive and do away with the added steps?

Back before the injectors, it was a costly difference, now, it is a cosmetic one and the last rebalance is a missed opportunity to remove it.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Before the T3 sub-system change, the Loki could barely be fit as a missile boat yet really excelled at being a gun boat.

Now after the T3 sub-system change, the Loki excels at being a missile boat yet pales in comparison as a gun boat.

The Loki launcher and projectile sub-systems need to be rebalanced.

[Cartheron_Crust]

No. They just need to plain “fix” Medium AC’s altogether.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

That needs to be done too but the Loki projectile sub-system and the Loki launcher sub-system still need to be balanced. Currently the launcher sub is overpowered and the projectile sub is underpowered.

[elitatwo]

@Cade_Windstalker

The Proteus’ drones shouldn’t be “as good as” the others, at least in terms of raw DPS, because that’s not what they’re there for, they don’t need to be, and they already have other advantages inherent to drones besides not using cap.

Exactly. And on top of that t3 were never intended to be “better” than everything else. Now you cannot yolo your 3 gajillion hp and 4000dps boat into a hac and win. A hac will give you a run for your money. Balance restored.

[JC_Mieyli]

@elitatwo

Balance restored

except for the huge elephant in the room which is sp loss

[elitatwo]

Yeah that made sense back then and was a deterrent for flying them too often. Now with them cheat-stix not so much.

[Imustbecomfused]

Notice that the other tech three ships can acquire six turret or missle hardpoints… but the loki seems to only provide five… this really bugs me… I should get 8 highs, 6 missle or turret points… just like the other SC’s…

[Specia1_K]

Loki can run 7 weapons if you mix.
And it is (more than) a little OP at the moment, but I think CCP is allowing that as makeupsex for the past.