[KYBERNAUTS] Investigating the truths of Raravoss as EDENCOM evacuates from the system

Alright, now I’m at my home office, I can reply in a bit more detail.

Because it’s cheaper to give them bioadaptive suits and enslave them, than it would be to clear the planetary surfaces of billions of rotting corpses, and the biohazard that results.
There. There’s an explanation why the Triglavians might do that, which does not require them to act in an altruistic or humane way at all.

Again, you are trying to invent weak straw-man arguments, to try and claim that the Triglavians aren’t “the bad guys”. Because you cannot accept the idea that not everyone would like your philosophical stance.
Thus, you, like most kybernauts, act much like a teenager who thinks popularity is the be-all and end-all.

Because you’re afraid.

As a contrast, let us look at say @Silas_Vitalia who has never been afraid to admit what she is, and accepts that her actions seem monstrous to some. People say “Hey ! You’re a blood raider !”, and she’d say “Yes. And ? Were you going somewhere with that ?”.

So, you’re a Trig supporter. And you’ll be seen as a monster by just about every citizen of New Eden, save for a relative handful of other capsuleers.

So. Deal with it. And stop whining that people think you’re evil.

Oh look an amarr said that is empire is rightfully and just

She… Didn’t?

In fact, last I checked Valerie there is a Sani Sabik follower and therefore a heretic to the Empire.

So… Where is this quip coming from? All she did was lay into the Collective.

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EM kindly stop feeding trolls. Thank you.

Perhaps announcing the mission while waiting for the first expected window-range of Totality to close before having the teams move in was a mistake. Regardless, the mission has been underway for a number of hours now, and logs and reports are in processing.

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Frankly, I see the Triglav as no worse than the empires overall, falling somewhere between the profound wrongness I perceive Amar society to lie in and the for-our-people efforts of the Republic.

I’m sure the Triglav have their fair share of bad things done to their people - I’d wager, perhaps, that those who don’t or cannot meaningfully contribute to Triglavian society enough to offset the assets required to maintain a Narodnya(human) body in Abyssal Deadspace may be consigned to the lifeform of Navka. At this point, they’d become little different from what we Capsuleers are in terms of having had our true selves perish, with a new instance of our minds projected into a new form - only being a machine with this mind instead. I can see problems with that, certainly - but as I’ve stated elsewhere before, the opportunities I perceive the Triglavian Collective to afford us vastly outweigh the negatives.

What’s more, the Drifters and Triglav are obviously linked in their history - and if I had to choose one side of that conflict to throw my lot in with, at this time it’ll certainly be the one that hasn’t mercilessly harvested the biomass of billions of baseliners for their own underfueled military machine.

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The three of us form as one to bless the apparatus
Triglav Cru comin’ through, do the knowledge, check the status

Facts can be reoriented, distorted even; the scant truth within your words is not of the Triglavian Collective– as with all fiction, it speaks most loudly of the author.

There is barely a single detail you cite which cannot be interpreted to support radically different conclusions than those you advocate with such conviction; while I will not dispute the unsettling silence of certain Imperial worlds, especially when compared to those lost to the Federation and State, you have built a compelling and precise narrative, which upon any scrutiny is revealed to be built upon uncorroborated details, whose sparseness is made yet worse by the absence of any which do not fit your conclusions.

Your assertion that only Amarr slaveworlds have gone silent in Final Liminality is at best mistaken, of the worlds we have specific information on loss of contact, Raravoss, Sakenta, Kuharah and Vale; while too small a sampling to draw any real patterns from, discounting Vale, as the system was subject to an information quarantine agreed between EDENCOM and the Federation– the populations with whom contact was lost were resident in underground colonies, while I don’t have adequate information available to draw conclusions from that, it is unlike Amarr slaveworld a detail present in every unexplained communications loss.

Obviously I cannot address concerns regarding non-existent persons, so will continue to your claim that evacuation became a priority only after an unspecified disaster on Raravoss; several million people were evacuated through the transhipment facilities on the first, second, third and fourth planets. Evacuation has been a priority in every system currently lost to us.

Your assertions in agglomerate seem very much in keeping with the substance of your report, they are supported by your carefully curated information:

  • The Triglav race may or may not abhor slavery, but to claim as you have done that theirs is to uphold will and reject coerced hierarchy is beyond ludicrous– they have imposed their will on the cluster and those who reside in it time and again these past months
  • I do not pretend to know what the slaves of Raravoss did or did not find, given that our two points of relative confidence regarding Port Sarum are that it, like every other transhipment facility in the system was being used to evacuate, and that it has been destroyed, it seems likely a great many of Raravoss’ slaves found death in the arrival of the Triglav
  • As earlier expanded upon, the safety of all the faithful was a priority before Raravoss, and remains so afterward, whether that requires evacuation or not.

I do not doubt that you seek evidence, though based on your treatment of the details we so far have; it seems probable that by omission or distortion, whatever facts you determine will serve the conclusion you have already reached.

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Svreja -

I believe you have found the clearest way to express my own interest and reasoning for backing the Kybernaut initiative. As others have said here, some pilots and civilians alike could and do see the Triglavians as “Evil” and that is their right. However, the Empires of New Eden also say so in regards to one another on more than one occasion. Nor are any of the empires innocent when it comes to how they treat their respective populations.

For those who do not know, I was Caldari born and learned first hand of the hardships associated with it. Cast out from their society and essentially exiled - I was left for dead. So it is not as if the Empires just lift every life to the top of their ability. And if it happened to me, I know it has happened to millions of others across the galaxy.

Of course, and as you mention - war is a violent game, and the Triglavians are no less innocent or pure when it comes to loss of life. That is true regardless of whether it be war targets, civilians, drifters, or their own kind. But in spite of that, I do agree that the opportunities presented by the Triglavians is going to be a benefit that outweighs the negatives at this time. Especially if you remove the propaganda from both sides regarding yet to be confirmed reports on what the Triglavians are doing day-to-day on planets.

It sounds like a lot of Empire aligned pilots view us Kybernaut Capsuleers as no more than evil henchmen chomping at the bit to burn everything down. And for some, that is probably the case - but assuming morality or personality traits about everyone else based on their “side” is nothing more than utter profiling. I do not look at all Amarrians and assume “slaver,” I do not look at all Caldari and assume “corporate dog,” I may be a Kybernaut, but I am not a robot.

If Zorya Triglav asked me to personally murder innocent lives - I would not senselessly accept the task and continue. The truth is - most, if not all Capsuleer Kybernauts are also in the dark. So far my group has only been tasked with dispatching military targets for strategic positioning. Few pilots come to mind who have jumped on board with the eradication of innocents, though I know they exist.

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Except they did. And you did.

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That is simply not true. I have not destroyed a single civilian ship during this invasion and all reports from planets are inconclusive at best as to what has happened with Triglavian ground troops. Most have stopped short of large population centers after destroying military targets.

Even the reported “orbital bombardment” specifically references a dreadnaught attack on a military base after it previously fired upon a ship in space.

It is even believed that some civilian groups on liminal planets have become trig-sympathizers.

Please do not make claims about my personal actions during this invasion without knowledge and I will refrain from doing so about you.

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You did.

Every single life lost defending from a hostile invading force is exacerbated by the actions of each and every kyber. Every life lost in panics among the planetary populations, you bear responsibility for, because you helped cause the conditions for those panics. Every innocent life lost when Trig ships inconsistently blow up evacuating civilians is on your hands.

Each and every one of you bears some of the responsibility for all of those lives. Because of your personal actions. Because of what you chose to do. Nobody here would be at all shocked at any accusation you might level against me, so feel free to come up with the best you’ve got.

It doesn’t change the fact that yes, Zorya ordered you to be an accomplice to mass murder, and you gleefully leapt to go walkies with your master.

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And what of all of the non-combatant lives you have ended destroying structures for your bloody war? I see you are a member of Goonswarm so are you not also responsible for the loss of literally countless lives over the years? Do you not share responsibility for those actions? Are you in a place to judge others when your hands are also covered in blood as fresh as the spring rain?

Granted - I do not believe that about you. In fact, since I know nothing about you I would be willing to discuss and learn more of your past, your motives, your dedications before I make any assumptions. But it sounds like from our initial exchange you may be unwilling to get to know anyone outside of your ideals. And for that I will not fault you.

I will admit to the fact that lives have been lost - even innocent ones at that. I never said the Triglavians were good or peaceful, quite the opposite in fact. I merely offered that not all who ally with the collective would willingly drop bombs on a civilian populace.

If you must hear the words that my actions do have consequence, I will submit and agree with you because that is war. But, I will not make allowances for those who judge others solely for their allegiance. To reduce the complexities of morals to such an arbitrary choice would be to remove everything and anything that makes us “human” for whatever that word stands for in our case.

As I said:

Let’s run down the ones you opted for…

Moreso, even, than most Goons. I’ve been in leadership. I’ve helped shape campaigns. I’ve designed the very tools our line members use to kill people. I’ve lit the cynos so our fleets could jump or bridge in and kill people. I’ve kept our line members alive while they kill people. And I’ve given orders for others to do every one of those things and more. Am I responsible for the lives they took while I kept them alive? Am I responsible for the lives they took using the tools I designed?

Absolutely.

I am absolutely responsible for every act of violence I supported, enabled, encouraged, and even ordered. “I didn’t pull the trigger myself” is the defense of a craven, pitiful weakling, who cannot bear to acknowledge the things they have done, and the cost in human lives that they have caused. Every one of those deaths, I have to live with. Some are harder than others.

I am responsible for every killing I actively worked to make possible. And you are responsible for every killing you actively worked to make possible. The difference is: one of us talks about morals, and the other still possesses enough of them to admit her culpability.

Then you are either a fool, or a coward who needs so desperately to hide from his own actions that he blinds himself to the monstrosity of others.

As for this nonsense…

It is only a war because you and those like you have made it one. If you had all stood with the people willing to defend the helpless against unwarranted aggression, this invasion would have choked on its own arrogance. Instead, you chose to ally yourself with things that bought your conscience with shiny trinkets and the promise of new toys, or the chance to lash out at a system everyone knows is flawed, but which at least tries to protect people.

‘It’s a war’… more pathetic mewling from someone who needs to rationalize away the responsibility for what they’ve caused.

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So, what, you require an absolutely pure history with no ties to any organization that’s inflicted atrocities?
Fine. Here the hell I am. I defy your Collective’s invasions as cruel injustice and impacting the wrong people.
Now I’ve been hearing a lot about this potential Drifter threat. I’ve even opened a discussion about it. But I ain’t seen a lick of action on that front from your pals.
Actions speak louder than words. Twenty-seven system-wide mass extinction events speak louder than trash-talking some J-sec weirdos who ain’t even paying attention.
Put up or shut up.

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I have never hidden from my actions.

There are facts, and then there is everything else. You made the distinction between “They did” and “You did” - you separated my actions from theirs. I merely made a statement saying that not everyone allied within the collective would willingly kill civilians at command. The fact that civilian lives were and are being lost is something I very intentionally made note of in my original statement. I even said that I believe the benefits will outweigh the negatives (again acknowledging responsibility). You have chosen to pick and choose which parts of my statement to acknowledge so you can justify your attack.

The malice in your words demonstrates to me that you are incapable of rational or intelligible discussion - and must therefore resort to Ad hominem arguments to break your “opponent” down without making a point.

My entire point is that those that call the Triglavians inherently EVIL and paint the Empires as “the good guys” should be more willing to look within their own establishments before making such claims. I never once made a claim that I am the moral high ground. You argue that I have, though conveniently left that out of your multitude of quotes (because I didn’t say it). The only thing I said about morals was that for someone to call everyone allied with an establishment evil without looking at each individual - that would remove everything that it is to define what is moral.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that this conversation is probably fruitless because you are not willing to actually read and engage with someone’s words and instead already have your mind made up about attacking someone on a personal level.

The only person making this contention is you. No one here is arguing that the empires are the “good guys”. This argument merely distracts from any debate of the issue of the Triglavians invasion. Nothing the empires have done could possibly justify the forced conversion of these civilian populations, nor the stars which facilitate their livelyhoods.

We have not observed the behavior of some benevolent liberators of slaves. The Triglavians fire on unaligned pilots, freighters, explorers, scientists, relief efforts, refugees, and diplomats. Even if a Kybernaught soloy focused their efforts on military targets, if the Triglavians take over a system their wereposts fire on civilians. I’ve listened to Kybernaut comes, every kill by a werepost is celebrated.

That’s why I joined this conflict for edencom. I admit to a violent past, but I turned my life around. For years I was a pacifist, exploring wormhole space alone. I had ignored the Triglavians utterly until shortly before Raravoss was invaded. I had only just volunteered to help the neutral observation of the Triglavians behavior due to the huge number of potential target systems. It was only when I watched with my own eyes the Triglavians massacre the scientists and refugees that joined the fight.

I do not detract from that issue. I admit to bloodshed and violence. I admit to accepting the consequences of allowing liminal systems to happen. You say you have not seen the benevolent liberators - and I say I have not seen mass extinctions and conversions. Does that mean that either or both of them are or are not happening? It could be both. We certainly know that civilians are also forming up to side for the Triglavians and I would bet that it isn’t just the maniacal and murderous joining their ranks.

There are many factions within the collective (though there are three primary clades), and they each operate differently. And if you are referring to Swarm’s comms - then yes there are certainly more bloodthirsty Kybernauts seeking to murder for fun. I would and do condemn that action just as I would from any other. In our fleets - we have solely attacked military targets, research Triglavian technology, and await the upcoming changes for liminality. Let me be clear - that does not mean we are innocent either. Only demonstrating that different factions within the group have different goals and do not all operate under the exact same rules.

My only intention is to open a line with the other side when others have been unwilling. To discuss what is happening, for better or worse. To get to the bottom of this mystery. I understand you have your side and I have mine. I am not trying to change that, or justify my actions to anyone. I merely offered my story to provide a single example of someone’s reasoning for joining the Kybernauts (not as an exhaustive list either).

But there does seem to be a lot of misinformation about and I prefer to keep the air clear.

This claim is unsupported by anything but Triglavian propaganda.

While we have ample evidence that any civilians who attempt to resist Triglavian conquest are massacred, we do not know what happens to those who submit. Any support shown by occupied populations in Triglavian media, following such massacres must be considered under duress.

The SCOPE is now a triglavian propaganda machine?

Where is that evidence?

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