L4 Missions - Abaddon vs Apocalypse

Hello! Just jumped back into the game because of quarantine, and I’m trying to get into level 4 missions which is something that I have always wanted to do in the past but didn’t actually have the skills for until recently. I’ve been putting together some fits for Amarr battleships (I trained into them simply because I liked the way they look more than any other faction) and I’ve come across a bit of an anomaly.

Every time I’ve heard the Abaddon’s name in the past, people have said that the Apocalypse is better. But that’s not what I’m seeing after some time in the fit simulator and Pyfa. I’ve put together one fit for each that I can use, and the Apocalypse is just plain outclassed by the Abaddon. The Abaddon has a significant advantage in EHP and DPS at the price of less than 10km optimal range. The Abaddon is also slower by roughly 30m/s but that really doesn’t seem like a big deal.

Note that I’m missing some skills here (most notably Surgical Strike and Large Pulse Laser Specialization are both rank 0, to be trained to at least 3 before I try to take on a mission), so the DPS numbers will be a little low.

Here are the fits I’m using:
This Abaddon fit gives me ~670 DPS (drones included), 78k EHP, ~190 sustained tank, and an optimal range of 49km. It’s effectively cap stable when running just the guns and tracking computer, depleting in just under 10 minutes. Running the cap booster and repper, it is cap stable at 45%.

[Abaddon, L4 Mission Abaddon Pulse]

Large Armor Repairer II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Optical Compact Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
100MN Afterburner II
Large Cap Battery II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Hammerhead I x5
Hobgoblin I x5

The following Apocalypse fit gets me ~560 DPS, 53k EHP, ~160 sustained tank (? Pyfa tells me this number is lower than the Abaddon’s but I don’t understand that), and an optimal range of 57km. It is effectively cap stable running just the guns, depleting in 131 minutes. Running the cap booster and repper puts it cap stable at 56%.

[Apocalypse, L4 Mission Apoc Pulse]

Large Armor Repairer II
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Cap Battery II
Large Cap Battery II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Hammerhead I x5
Hobgoblin I x5

As you can see, the Abaddon has a significant lead in DPS (+110), EHP (+25k), and sustained tank for some reason (+30). It has a significantly worse capacitor, but not worse enough that it matters. It also has worse range, but again not worse enough to outweigh the major DPS and tank advantages.

Am I missing something or is the Abaddon actually better? Any constructive criticism is also welcome; I haven’t ever done PvE seriously before and I don’t really know what I’m doing with these fits.

You’re missing a lot. I agree on paper the Abaddon looks better, and in fleet PVE (incursions, wh sites etc) it is far superior. However the issue with the Abaddon compared to the Apocalypse is the range and the thing has inferior cap to the Apocalypse (which has a larger capacitor yield as well as recharge rate - things you want in missions or any other solo PVP).

You say that the apocalypse “only” has an extra 10km range, but youre not factoring in the fact that it has a native +50% (nearly) tracking on its turrets at level 5 (and I think you should be flying a ship or fitting a module until you have it to level 3 and are currently training to level 4). This means that in the Abaddon engagement range you are tracking like a cruiser, hence your applied damage is much greater. No point in having a godfit which gives superior DPS if it misses most of its shots. That exra 10km with MF rapidly outpaces to an extra 30km with scorch.

The reason PYFA is giving you a lower tank on the Apocalypse is that the Abaddon has bonuses to armour resistances (which is what makes it great in fleets).

You say you are “effectively cap stable when running the guns and comp” but you run out in ten mins? Your DPS is very low, you will be in a mission for longer than ten mins, meaning you will need to last far longer, as well as have a better tank because you will take more damage. The Apocalypse can kill things before they even get to you because if its range projection.

A few tips on your fittings;
-Dont use a buffer tank in missions, you’re wasting a lot of powergrid on that plate and in this context it adds nothing.
-RESISTS RESISTS RESISTS; its the most efficient way to improve your tank, and that goes for PVP, PVE, Buffer, Active, everything. You want to find a balance between resist mods and damage mods.
-IF you are going to use a cap booster in a mission, you should not have to use additional cap mods (with the exception of perhaps discharges to reduce weapon cap use)
-Try and avoid fitting modules. If you cannot fit a mission ship without a fitting module, you are either too experienced for me to tell you how to fit a ship, or you don’t have the skill’s to fit the ship, go and train your magic 14 to V.
-Amarr ships NEED to be cap stable with weapons and weapon mods active, as well as any passive tank (ie resists) you may have, using cap mods to achieve this is fine.

If you are dead set on the Abaddon;

[Abaddon, Abaddon -Mission fit]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

This gives you cap stability with the hardeners, guns, and comp active. You can swap the AB for a MJD if you want. As you can see, you have to sacrifice a lot of fitting points to achieve anything viable (2 rechargers, 1 CCC, and 2 Discharges).

However you should really consider the Apocalypse, its ability to track and hit and apply turret DPS at missile range is incredible. Its native cap also lends itself to having an afterburner perma-active, allowing you to dictate the range you engage NPC’s at (most mission DPS comes from cruisers, you can eradicate them out of their range and move closer for the battleships).

[Apocalypse, Apocalypse -Mission fit]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Although I would really recommend the Napoc, its the fastest Amarrian BS, has the same reach as the Apocalypse, and gives you more cap and an extra low, allowing you to field a better tank. I have included some cheap-ish faction mods, because its a Napoc, but the fit works just as well (superior to both of the above) with standard T2.

[Apocalypse Navy Issue, Napoc -Mission fit]

Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Imperial Navy Adaptive Nano Plating
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Capacitor Power Relay II

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

4 Likes

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. I knew I was missing something (or a lot of things as my early attempts at fitting would indicate), I just couldn’t quite place it.

I do have my magic 14 at V, but it looks like I’m missing Advanced Weapon Upgrades which is why I’m having power grid issues. That extra 10% on weapons makes a small but crucial difference.

I got my “effectively cap stable” figure from a thread that said you only needed five minutes. I think it was quite outdated though.

I think that was a general bit of advice, which might not extend to Amarrian ships which need the cap for their guns. The general idea is, depending on your DPS output, you only need 3-6 min of tank (the higher your dps the lower you can push this). The fits I listed last around the 35min mark with all but the rep going, but because you have cap recharge mods and a delay between targets when you fire your weapon, youre effectively cap stable.

When you’re more experienced with level 4’s and know how long it takes you to complete them, you can start experimenting with having <10 min worth of capacitor.

The general idea is… there is no general idea.

Cap stability is a stupid notion, because most of the modules are not used unless in a specific context.

Indeed the apoc is more sniper and the abby is more a brawler. With low skills you can’t afford to brawl anyhow (needs more cap, armor skills)
Therefore the apoc is the only viable ship for a beginner.
Sure it has less DPS and less tank. But it has more projection and more application, ant that’s what actually make you kill the ennemies faster in PVE.

1 Like

Fly whatever you think looks cool. There is - almost always - a way to make it work.

Efficiency is not the same as having fun. The Abaddon is one of the most beatiful hulls in the game, so by all means, use it. ■■■■ other people’s opinions.

4 Likes

:+1: :+1: You are obviously a sentient being of style and taste.

As much as I have an almost disturbing affection for the Abaddon, for you right now I’d say start with the Apocalypse. Also, put a microjumpdrive on it. While you are familiarizing yourself with your new activity it might be useful to you to be able to quickly jump 100km, either to get out of trouble or dictate range.

o7

2 Likes

Throw a spanner in the works you could go Armageddon, use drones to the max and then choice what ever turret or launcher you’d like. Its a great all rounder for missioning. It has one of the largest drone capacity and bandwidth, almost like the Domi.

Apoc is a great sniper for missions.

Once you have the skills the Abaddon is great tank, but requires enhancer to get good turret tracking.

Abaddon is love.
Abaddon is life.
This is my own exclusive fit, enjoy.
https://www.eveworkbench.com/fitting/abaddon/76b63e9b-178b-44cf-923d-08d7a5bfb70f
It should be noted that this fit is VERY tight and I believe even requires a 3% cpu augmentation to fit, but it WILL fit even on alpha characters.
Also, I noticed someone said buffer tank is useless which is not true. Having extra tank buffer means you have time to turn off your reps allowing your cap to recharge some before you have to activate them again (ideally done around 30% cap.) Value-wise you’d be crazy not to fit plate on armor tanked ships since plate adds so much raw hp compared to shield extenders it’s a big part of what makes armor tanking what it is. In this context the single 1600 plate adds 66% the abaddon’s armor hp, so yeah value up the wahzoo.

No, just no. That’s just completely stupid.

This is completely useless in PVE

1 Like

why so?

because what was written makes no sense.

You don’t( save cap by having a better buffer. You need to use more cap to get the same % of buffer, so what you win by not using your cap, you lose it by using your cap, in the same exact proportion.

it’s like you told me that not starting your car decreases the consumption to make a car trip. In the end you stil need to start it.

except not because cap doesn’t recharge linearly AND you’re not considering the time ratio difference of losing tank vs losing cap. I guess there’s more to builds than the paper numbers hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

I am. And that’s why I tell you that post is stupid.
Buffer tanking has literally zero impact on cap usage when doing missions.
It’s a waste of slot, of fitting, also makes you slower to move so in the end it’s also a waste of time.

Buffer tanking, like double/triple tanking (eg armor + hull) is a stupid idea when doing missions. A RAH or even an adaptive nano plating would be just much better.

You’re making an awful lot of assuptions, I never said what to replace it for. If you even bothered to look at the fit I posted you would see that it had RAH on it… OP beware posters like this that parrot rules without taking into consideration your unique situation.

Also btw, on a sub 300m/s ship you lose a whopping 1m/s with a 1600mm plate so LOL.

And I did not make the assumption what you said. You are claiming I made assumptions, which I did not.

Buffer tanking is ■■■■ for missions, period.
If you claim this is a good thing, you are either a complete noob or a troll.

OP beware trolls like this who claim BS and can’t accept what they claim makes literally zero sense.

again I never said buffer tanking was a good thing I said plates were good… Lose again. The closest thing you’ve had to a valid arguement was calling me stupid so who’s the troll?

oh, look you parroted again… SQUAWK SQUAWK

plate = buffer tanking. Lose again.

parroted again SQUAWK SQUAWK

A lot of opinions, gotta say now that I’m playing less I find I’m enjoying the forums more.

I liked my Abaddon like this as I do full-clears and so very high dps just meant more dwell time salvaging to me, and by trading the dps for dwell time, I could salvage and loot while fighting easier. With reduced tracking would just leave destroyers and frigates for drones if they got w/in 40km or so, or mjd off, didn’t matter:

[Abaddon, tst]

Centus C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Reactive Armor Hardener
Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Sensor Booster II
Imperial Navy Cap Recharger
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery

Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Modulated Heavy Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-Explosive Pump II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x8
Imperial Navy Radio L x8
Imperial Navy Standard L x8
Multifrequency L x8
Mobile Tractor Unit x1

…But it’s a high-sec mission fit, that’s for sure.

For just going in and tearing things up DragoFire is sure spot-on with the Armageddon, for close-and mid-range ‘in a hurry’, can’t beat it with a high full of heavy missiles and then the drone-load, fun T1 BS. Too bad the C3-X Hiva BCM’s went up so much in price, three of them in the lows were outstanding.

For what it’s worth, I shot at a ninja salvager in (memory claims) a Worm frigate once with way too large hybrids in a Dominix while using T1 drones (was my first 4 months). I got ridden by a mad-russian demanding money until daily re-boot time for my troubles, and only survived because was cap-stable and could tank both him and the mission npc’s which was good as he ate all my drones. So even though I’ve stopped shooting at yellow-blinkies in mission area, I try to get as much cap as I can w/out hurting the mission profile I fit with best.