L4 Missions Need Rewards+

No, it is not the definition of playing.
If you don’t believe me, ask an experienced chess player.

Chess can not actually be played mindlessly, thoughtlessly, driven by lower instincts only.
Yet chess is being played.

Also, how you jump to that conclusion is … interesting … but I’m not going to dive into that.

Please try not to be like this when you talk to me?

Thank you? :slight_smile:

What ? Nobody talked about mindless. You were talking about to satisfy your primitive instinct, and that is what playing is for.

A human being is driven by a lot of basic instinct, those create the “need” for things and later on the “will” for things. Satisfying those primitive instinct is needed to build a personnality : you don’t create a personality when you are in the NEED but when you make the choice of your WILL.
Some of those instinct are to remain alive, but also to have a feeling of growth, to have rewards for your actions in society, to feel in a secure environment. Playing games allow you to satisfy those NEEDS in a world that does not allow to satisfy them out of simulated environment.

People who do martial sport tend to be less aggressive than people who don’t, either in words or in acts. Martial arts are a way to make aggressive people lose aggressivity.
People who do competitive games (at higher level) are able to accept criticism more easily than people who don’t ; but it’s correlation and not causation, I don’t know of study that proves that starting competitive games makes you able to handle criticism more easily.

But what’s important is that when you PLAY a game you satisfy your primitive needs and thus allow yourself to become a human instead of a beast. True there also are issues with those, but your “broken society” is actually the only way to have a society that is not broken. Remove the games, people will start killing each other.

if you want some informations about that, you may read this short wikipedia page
This article partially contradicts what I’m saying as it eg says

The original hierarchy states that a lower level must be completely satisfied and fulfilled before moving onto a higher pursuit. However, today scholars prefer to think of these levels as continuously overlapping each other.[3] This means that the lower levels may take precedence back over the other levels at any point in time.

It’s just a difference in opinion.


:point_up: this is exactly why the low payments are a good thing (specifically in relation to missions), to get people out doing other things (including things that are friendly to short windows of gameplay)

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Money isnt everything

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Mental Note: Specifically point out the mindlessness behind most farming activities and add an additional paragraph about the differences to playing Chess.

I’ve made a mistake. Next time I’ll be more precise.

I’ll read through your post again properly, and the link.
Thank you!


I somewhat agree. But… this game revolves heavily around making isk. For some it’s the only reason to play, for others it’s a bonus that allows for new toys. Who are you to judge how anyone enjoys the game?

For fun some make spread sheets and do nothing but play the market. Others just want to blow stuff up.


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Well, I remember the past, can see the present and extrapolate into the future.
Who are you to tell me I can’t judge about this?
Who are you to judge me for judging about this?
Who are you to believe I don’t know what I’m talking about?

I absolutely can, and should, just like everyone else.

The past was vastly different. Back then it was actually more of an RPG, while today it is just more of a generic MMO. Back then people played actual personalities, which gave us a rich environment with lots of interactions in local in local. Lots of activity. Lots of random encounters. Far more than what can be seen today literally everywhere in highsec.

Yes, it was more of an RPG. We used to say that everyone was a roleplayer, because that was essentially what we were. Everyone was playing his role in this game and the vast majority of people, even those who never shot anyone, were “pirates at heart” and not “consumers who have no actual ambitions beyond what CCP laid out for them”.

Today it’s a collection of minigames. Thanks to people being able to inject skills, the game completely dropped out of being an RPG, turning it into a generic MMO. It dropped out of being a journey where you can actually explore society with the ability to have actual impact on said society, into a generic MMO.

The point of the game, in the past, never was to make ISK. ISK was just the tool to achieve what people actually wanted, which wasn’t available through game mechanics. Nowadays it’s the definite center, thanks to CCP, who target the audience that is the easiest to manipulate out of their money.

I don’t assume you understand that at all. I would guess, based on your “who are you to judge” ■■■■■■■■, that you probably also believe people played FarmVille because it was good and not because it was designed to be addictive.

That’s where modern science brought us. Games nowadays do not even need to be good, they just need to push the right buttons to get people to play them over and over again. The fact that apparently shallow thinkers like - apparently - yourself are incapable of understanding the difference is just making it worse.

Nowadays, thanks to CCP, more and more people solely play for the reward. The difference is actually quite significant. What you seem to be missing is the understanding of that difference:

When people play solely because they’re being baited into playing, compared to actually wanting to play the game for playing’s sake, because it’s enjoyable all by itself, then the game sucks. When people play solely for the rewards, then they don’t play for playing’s sake, they play for the rewards. They “play” for a drug.

It’s literally like giving a child what it wants, without it needing to work for it. The end result is spoiled brat that will continuously demand more and more and more, because that’s how it ■■■■■■■ works.

Making a game that makes people addicted to it doesn’t make a good game. It’s makes a psychologically manipulating game. That doesn’t mean it’s good. You wouldn’t call an addictive drug a good thing either, yet people who use it want it all the ■■■■■■■ time. That’s where “profits at all costs” lead us.

Back then people played because of everything it had to offer outside of the scripted paths and content laid out by CCP. This “back then” isn’t even that long ago. Pre 2013 was a good time.

I don’t mind you being a low quality player, if that’s actually the case. I mind the erroding of the game, turning it into a grindfest without actual goals, where people don’t play a character in an RPG, but play solely for themselves to feel better about themselves by hoarding worthless virtual ■■■■■■■■ making them feel like winners.

It’s a consumers’ game now, not a creators’ game.
It’s a shadow of it’s former glory.

I don’t expect you to understand this and I honestly don’t care. I’ve learned that even people, who I used to fundamentally disagree with on things in the past, started agreeing with me about this. The one thing CCP actually achieved was getting bears and “pirates” closer together in their opposition to how CCP is literally ruining this game.

I’ve yet to see any evidence that CCP actually made this game more attractive, feel more alive, and more interesting. No one, including you, can claim that they’ve managed to do so. They didn’t. After years of changes we’re still waiting for the game to get back to feeling alive, feeling active and feeling like it’s more than just a collection of mini games.

Please stop trying to get people to self-censor themselves. Everyone is allowed to judge and you telling people otherwise is attempted censorship of thoughts. That’s no good.


Edit: Hell, just minutes ago I’ve read in another thread that people actually like the changes to exploration because it removes the “time wasted” on actually exploring so they get to the money faster. What that means is that it’s all about the goal nowadays, and not about the journey. It’s all about the drug and not how you get there. It’s not about playing anymore, it’s about receiving.

That thread, or rather, the very people who perceive “playing the game is a waste of time” are proving my point completely. They don’t want to play, they just want to get rewarded.

Quoting myself:


Only because everyone want isk/h not game. People forget that EVE is a game. for 95% of people I met in game or in chats EVE is a job. Only thing they pursue is more isk in given time frame. This main reason of current state of game and its community, not devs changes since game still allow you to be “your sanbox”. But people don’t want it to be sandbox. Also players changed. Now most of games play for itself and you are mindless zombie in front of screen. But people want it, that’s why each year another series of great games is ruined.


Here we go with the black and white thinking again.

WoW that’s way to much to read. Clearly you care enough to over think, over write and completely blow my comment out of proportion.

I do understand as we get older and things begin to be repetitive we get bitter due to lack of things feeling new. The thrill is gone. So we over think how It could be better and post it through the veil of an avatar. Or maybe it’s just you.

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You suck. Learn to play.

We need to nerf income from l4s. 200M+/h with a t3c ??? a bit much if you ask me.

Payout from incursions and invasions is lower than from l4 missions in hs. True story.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA… I make more per hour with l4 missions in hisec than carrier ratters in null. Don’t say payout is crap. There are missions that are crap - decline them and eat standing loss (minimal anyway). Good missions have crazy payouts for amount of time involved.

I… can’t… even… :roll_eyes:

I don’t normally like to call people out, but I’m going to advise anyone reading this thread to completely and totally disregard @darkestkhan_Eriker’s commentary. Either he’s trolling hardcore trying to steer newbies into L4 missions to waste their time and earn pennies on the dollar, or he’s delusional, living in a world of alternative facts thoroughly disconnected from the consensus of reality.

If one doesn’t know how to execute Incursions, even the HS ones, or nullsec ratting effectively and efficiently, then I can understand why one would feel L4 missions have better payouts. But done properly, the potential payout is almost always consistently higher in other PVE activities. L4 missions truly are the burnt rice at the bottom of the rice cooker :rice:

They might be fun, they might be casual friendly, but strictly on the basis of payouts they are almost always inferior, even compared to other casual-friendly PVE opportunities.


100M/h I do casually. CASUALLY. 150M+ is typical. 200M+ happens as well.

Just cause you have got no clue how to run missions is not my problem.

Drop crap missions, do good missions and do some average ones (mostly to not hit your standings too much).

Anderson does similar amount of isk/h with l4s. And there are more ppl like us. Everyone of us has our own method to reach this isk/h but most of the time we don’t make raw isk - it is either in loot or in lp. For example I can already say that I don’t do burners - outside of team burners (these I can dual box with my alt to get it done fast in throwaway hookbills, and even then mostly for standings with agent).

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My best years playing was 03 to 09 living in LS as a ratter, poor as a church mouse. I saved everything, refined everything. Playing solo, a couple fights here and there. Just doing my thing. Join Curse alliance then back to LS, join Red alliance then back to LS, Join BoB then to HS (big mistake) lvl 4 , built a carrier, mining, bought plex on sale. Got bored. Quit.

Resubbed this spring, dumped all my plexes all 3000. Reading the forum on my spare time, thinking only about fun/hour

CCP I think it was a mistake to make income too easy, imho complexity in game play is the way to go in a large game like this. Leave part timers tasks to do to help the larger groups survive. Let the little birds sing.

anderson only talks about the RAW isk/h he makes.

The converted is not something to talk about because it really depends on how organizational you are. Also it depends a lot on the occasions.

When I say I do 100M/h it’s on reliable average. Yesterday I made exactly two hours of farming (actually a bit less, more like 1:55 ) and ended up with exactly +410M on two accounts. However that’s a lucky one, because usually I do a bit less since one of the tow does not have perfect skills nor all the ships. Also that’s because I had few zazzmatazz/scarlet whose value is in the loot (I just looked at my net wallet diff, I set it to 0 at the beginning and looked at the value after two hours, then added the two)

reported for insults.

I’ve done ratting in NS (the most boring activity, and need so much clicking in a carrier that it physically hurts)
I’ve done incursions (almost as boring as ratting in NS, but you are in fleet and it’s social)
I’ve done abyssal (only F4, not the F5 - always a chance to get those pesky starving webbing spawn)
I’ve done exploration in HS(very interesting), NS (100M/h in a buzzard)and WH (too many losses, not worth it).

But yeah, no idea what I’m talking about.
Only YOU have made experiments, used data to have a global idea of what is what, took your time to think out solutions, and so only you were able to find out all the possible outcomes of all possible issues.
Yet you fail so hard…

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I talk about total isk mostly cause the kinds of missions I do have 0 bounties :wink:
But I do use jita buy order value for the loot so in reality it is even more. [I repro ~30% of loot as minerals are often worth more than jita buy, and ~30% I also sell in hek through sell orders, the rest goes to jita for “instant” cashout]

This was prophecy.

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