While I probably put evidence together (included some of the charts released yesterday), the simple fact of the matter is that I chose to trust CCP when they say that this was necessary and that it has helped, while you do not. And while there is indeed evidence available to show that their actions have helped, and that they have indeed been achieving their goals, it doesn’t matter. Because you see what you want to see. Case in point,

you try to act like bitter vets haven’t been throwing a tantrum in mass even though there’s been:

  • jita riots,
  • gaming articles written about player backlash
  • endless streams of complaints in dev threads and official threads that can get upwards of 30 votes a comment
  • players pointing the player backlash as evidence that CCP is on the wrong track
  • and rants on reddit that can get upwards of 500 upvotes.

So, I don’t know what else to say to you if we can’t even agree on reality.

Hell, I am at a complete loss at how you can be so dismissive of the negative impact of bitter vets, while saying that I’m doing damage by speaking out against them. I’m just at a loss here.

Needless to say, I don’t think that any amount of talking is ever going to help us see eye to eye on this.

Exactly. What is it thats scarce?

Real life scarcity (where you are starving) is a little different from video game scarcity, isn’t it? Plus EVE’s scarcity wasn’t / isn’t even scarce; people are just complaining they can no longer easily and rapidly become ISK trillionaires by AFK sitting in a bunch of Rorqs anymore. That’s not scarcity, even though they call it that.

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Bypassing the ban again are we Blue?


We don’t agree about ‘reality’ because I’m using factual, real references, and you keep making up unsupported or irrelevant anecdotes. And also trying to conflate everything negative into some “bitter vet” conspiracy.


  • The vast majority of the articles and backlash were in response to CCP’s first take on Extraction to Production, which did indeed well and truly suck. That backlash was required to get CCP to quickly step back and re-write the update into a more palatable (perhaps too palatable) form.
    Reference: From Extraction to Production | EVE Online
  • OMG 30 whole votes on a post! That’s SUCH A HUGE percentage of players! In case you can’t math, even 500 upvotes is roughly one-tenth of 1% of players. And again, those were mostly in reaction to the original, broken, proposal.
  • CCP in fact IS on the wrong track because they haven’t “fixed” anything with this. Miners mine more and are less gankable. Resources have been overall increased.
  • Jita riots were largely supported by nullblocs upset about the original changes (again) and not by “bitter vets” at all.

You keep demonstrating that you don’t even slightly understand the label you keep trying to use to smear everyone you disagree with about EVE. You keep demonstrating that you don’t know what a fact or a reference is, and instead prefer to fall back on broad generalization and “I know this is true, I just can’t link anything to support it.” And the things you think do support it are actually wrong!

Here’s more, actual reality:

And more:

And some more!

The economy isn’t fixed, it’s heading for “even more mining and ISK faucets despite fewer players”.

I totally get that you hope that things will get better by pretending everything is wonderful, and nothing is going wrong, and anyone complaining is a “toxic bitter vet, unable or unwilling to adapt, and trying to poison the game”. But you are simply, factually, demonstrably and provably wrong about that. And you never have anything real to back up your assumptions.

I suspect that would be why we don’t agree on this particular issue. Because one of us is observing reality, and one of us is indulging in wishful thinking and scaremongering.


@Algathas, @Andre_Matar
I can see your point of argument around the scientific research results. SO simply claim is:

  1. IT s a game scarcity. SO mechanics of human behaviours and natural biases will not work in-game?
    2 you cannot make predictions or evaluations and comparisons game and real-life economy?
    3-Yha CCP called this Scarcity but This is Not really Scarcity actually… himm.

Both arguments say oh these can work in real life that way… but this is game. Because it is a game.
and this is not even scarcity.

I will not argue any of these because there are already hundreds of research done by respected universities atm all value the EvE Online s economic environment as microeconomics.

EVE: Online as a Potential Microeconomic Model

just one example…
And another one is one of the former EVE Online developers from 2003 even in 2003 without having the data load of 18 years… how much accurate he could predict the great recession even with that small amount of data…

A lot changed in that area since these years… Amount of data in the Behavioral Economics area is gigantic… And they build a lot of alternative effective strategies in last 10 years,i have been done with my thesis 5 years ago eve online launch… if today i would definitely go for it in my area of interest about this game.

yes miners will mine more. but less gankable? That depends on the how you interpret the data. Its safe to say that everyone that was mining in a retriever is now less gankable. sure. But have you considered that many people who were solo mining in an orca, for example, are now swinting to retreivers?

So yes mining ships all have more EHP. But if the number of orcas reduces in favour of more barges then that has an effect to. So a player that was in an orca everyday maybe mines more in a retriever now and as such he is in space in a more gankable ship.

And based on the graphs CCP showed off on the Q&A last night this is happening.

Why am i highlighting this?…………… Simply while you are presenting data it doesnt always say what you think it is saying.

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You’re making a mistake in assuming they care. They don’t. They have a corporate vision and you, me, and anyone else who doesn’t like it…well, we might as well not exist. We get no say. No voice. Eat it or quit. That’s their methodology now.

Nah, you’re just showing again, that you simply post to disagree without thinking. Engaging mouth before brain is never an impressive tactic.

And while it’s certainly possible to misinterpret the data, it’s much more reliable to predict outcomes based on evidence and data than it is to base them on prejudice, anecdote, and personal opinion.

Are miners mining more? Yes. Are there more total resources to be mined? Yes. Are mining ships overall less gankable? Yes. Anyone in an Orca who chooses to trade more yield for more risk is doing exactly what miners have always done, making the risk/reward choice. They just now have better choices.

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say. Check the MERs three months from now and you will see that mining has gone up, and mining vessel ganking has gone done. All the word-waffling and hairsplitting you care to indulge in won’t change the outcome.


First off because Eve is a game, a player can just quit with no consequences. They quit Eve and they still go about their daily life.

But even if you take away that aspect, Eve doesn’t even have survival mechanics. There are games where if you don’t eat you starve and die. There are games where if you don’t protect yourself from the elements you die. There are games where your items have wear and tear from use. There are games where if you die you start out completely from scratch. There are games with much harder to procure resources or they are finite. There are games where you can be killed even when logged out.

Eve has relatively little survival aspect so there are no psychological effects from Eve that relate to survival. While Eve does have an economy, the effects of “survival psychology” on the economy are very little. The economy is based on destruction from boredom rather than fighting for survival.

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Honestly, I think it’s a good thing. Back to the old old CCP who didn’t give a fck and did things because they wanted to. No CSM, just Icelandic stubbornness. They made lots of mistakes but from that they also made EVE so there’s that.

Don’t get me wrong, us players know more about the game, from within, than they do but THEY have the oversight and vision. Also, us players can’t be trusted with things like overall balance because we can’t stop trying to game the system. And then we get to the soft cuddly Seagull era which is pretty much where is really went wrong, even though they also did a lot of good.

I much prefer a completely arbitrary, random, eye of Sauron version CCP all acting on its own, even or especially without the CSM, that once is a while burns the fields or changes something that catches us off guard. Change is good, complacency is bad.

Completely agree. But the key is not letting prejudice, anecdote and personal opinion skew how you look at that data.

The thing i always look for when someone posts data and makes claims is how they react when people suggest that the data could be looked at differently. And usually people who outright dismiss those observations in an insulting way are the people that have their pre-conceptions coloured and are seeing what they want to see. (thats you by the way :slight_smile: )

True enough, but you didn’t interpret the data in a different way. You posted a single example, and assumed that invalidated the whole premise. Your example wasn’t even a good one. I seriously doubt large numbers of Orca miners are going to switch to Retrievers.

I’m dismissive of that notion because it’s a poor one, and because your posting history shows you mostly just want to argue without substance.

Post something worthy and you won’t get a dismissive reply. And again, come back in 3 months and let’s see who’s data-based prediction is more accurate, shall we?

Go watch the CCP Q&A from lats night and have a look at the graphs. The change in just a weel is stricking :slight_smile:

And also consider this………. If all the orca pilots are staying in orcas then they will be less well off. Theoretically the yield is the same (75% from industrial command and 75% from a t2 core) but……We keep being told that the distance to rocks is a travel time nerf for the drones so overall its a drop in yield. And we have the heavy water cost. Thats not mining more.

You cant have it all ways. You cant say its a massive increase to mining AND people are not moving out of ships that havent been buffed.

You are simply looking at one data point without considering all the other vectors.

CCP did exactly what they intended to do: make Orca’s less of a mining ship, make afk mining less worthwhile, make all barges and exhumers useful.

If CCP had failed in doing that then the threadnaught rage wouldn’t have happened. The fact that lazy and uninformed miners (not all miners, mind you) rage and cry means CCP did something right.



Yah, now we get the “people don’t log on” era. Every month it looks a little more grim. Give it time, CCP can’t help themselves anymore. Each ‘update’ the sandbox looks less like, well a sandbox, and more like a traditional MMO themepark ran and operated by people who don’t play the game.

All they care about are selling injectors and other virtual store crap to farm the fraction of the community that’s still here. Eve with 50k players was great, 26-30k is barely enough to even find someone in traditional null sec roaming gangs anymore.

Look, creativity can only derive from discipline.

But sometimes we find out that what we believe or consider that should be product of creativity, simply has no process, no roots, construction, conduction, basis, foundation, cohesion, and so on.

Sounds familiar?

Well, it happens more often than we recognize, admit or even witness: Most --and by most I mean more than 70%-- of the revealed narrative behind a product derived from pseudo-creativity is exclusively bull$hit!

An idea is thrown on the table and then comes the justification, the speech or narrative. And it is simply because there was zero discipline on the creative process.

I’d advise to take a look at exactly where it’s demonstrated that anything slightly similar to a coherent and serious creative process was involved. I welcome the backup for the OP and all the revealing 101’s but… I have absolute zero doubt of what I’m saying here.

There was nothing, we’ve been played and the narrative is bull$h1t!

If that is what they did then Scarcity would never have happened and you would have cat ears and furry skins. But scarcity DID happen showing they don’t give a fck about people being mad (and thus losing revenue over it). Your logic makes no sense.

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That’s absurd. That IS what they are doing, but it’s okay–act now and buy 1.5m skillpoints and/or PLEX for xX amount of $$. Go ahead–buy buy buy. If I were to summarize CCP’s messaging anymore, that’s all I got. Scarcity happened because they wanted it to and they’ve fed us whatever rationale to justify it b/c that’s again what ‘they’ wanted. It has everything to do with taking resources away from players in game and selling them back for cash.

edit: pardon the typo; fixed.