@Gadget_Helmsdottir Yours too… once upon a time I had more cheers… and I have a soft spot for trolls… but all is over. I’m out…
What I wrote up there is all based on facts.
When I have been writing… I have been constraining myself… ■■■■ I can’t mention this else they will seem like total idiots, nope if I begin to write about other things then I need to explain this mechanic and that attributes…then nobody will get it…
And even though I knew they won’t read it … i didn’t want and intended to carry it to an embarrassing lvl for them…
People don’t care about anything…
If it’s the old days I know I really enjoy the banter with you but those days are over.
that wall text will stay there, also I will publish it on my web page. may be more detailed and with better English.
I m not here to have fun… I do understand you and @Salt_Foambreaker and I’m truly sorry for being that hard and harsh…
if you have something to say about posts or questions you are more than welcome. those are not personal opinions they all have a base. If you are really eager to talk… please start reading. I give some example sources …
But I have no energy no cheers left after all that ■■■■ storm.
I’m already out. that post is for CCP really you dont even need to react … i dont care even if nobody say anything… yes i do enjoy talk to people and answer , of course this is forum . I do miss eve alot… but no way … really
That wasn’t trolling, that was funny, you called yourself the Mistress of bureaucracy (which was also funny). And she responded.
Actually your third person things at the end of most of your posts are pretty wonderful now that I think about it.
Everyone knows that paperwork stops, vanishes and then multiplies in the wrong place as soon as it gets to the bureaucracy.
I’m having trouble keeping up with this thread…
On one hand it started off great, then there were some misconceptions (understandable ones) about it’s intention and where it was coming from. Then, something remarkable happened. The subject, and the whole friggin point of this thread actually managed to happen right inside of the thread it self. I have to read up, a lots to get back to that point as a lot has happened since, but when I do I will do my damnedest to try and point it out as concisely as possible…
The short version though is right in the middle of some world class bickering pops up a rather disgruntled new player with a number of problems with Eve and sort of exacerbated by real life. After making a number of perfectly normal new person complaints a bunch of people at once began helping. For a moment it looked like this was going to go badly, but as this person’s emotions began to escalate all the people helping did two things: they made them selves more clear, and they got good and firm about it and what happened?
It friggin worked.
The lot of us stopped bickering and fixed a problem for someone who most likely is going to stay in Eve. This isn’t just some random person that “needs to go play something else” it’s a person who got pissed but actually listened even when they were directly criticized for how they were behaving. They then realized what was happening and why and in mid stream changed of course. THAT is exactly the sort of person who should be playing Eve.
That one little event, and there’s loads of them every day in Rookie Help, is exactly what Bluelysian is talking about and it happened right here in the thread she started about it.
It’s also exactly what @ccp_ghost was talking about in that video up there.
Thank you for that @Wadiest_Yong It’s pretty remarkable, and he’s not one of the people I’ve been reading about, they are (I think) more recent hires.
My pleasure. I find it one of the more interesting talks given on any of the eve gatherings (along with the old ones from dr. Eyjo on the economy).
It’s interesting to compare his (ccp ghost) findings with what ccp has been introducing into the game since that talk. Some of it is recognizable.
My thanks also to @bluelysian for initiating a discussion on this subject. Some of what was written was lost in translation (for me as well), but with some extra energy it becomes clear what the underlying thoughts are. The dynamics of the thread were indeed interesting, and those willing to take a chance with what some of us tried to explain may become part of the next generation of long term eve players. gl.
So I said I was going to try to detail how this thread managed to accomplish what it’s talking about right in the thread itself. This is proving to be really hard to do in the mobile app on my tablet (where I am stuck for the moment).
However it started (I think) with @Kellie_McCalamitie talking about being new (cheerfully) and then continued with @Twijn_Sunz who was kind of bitter for what seem to newer people to be good reasons.
She got fairly angry (a common problem in Eve, not just with new people, but with the lot of us to make a huge generalization).
Rather than let her just stay pissed off a bunch of people jumped in and actually offered good advice which at first was received rather negatively, but, as with a lot of Eve players who refuse to give up this was diffused.
Now… I’m not going to repeat all of the things about the stuff (hehehe, thank you @Ramona_McCandless for this:
That made my day (at four in the morning) and you are right if you were responding to me, I’m not sure you were, but if so that was perfect.
Anyhow, both of these new players now have help with some of the more complicated parts of Eve, and the stuff that gets new players thinking about doing something else. Even if some of its stuff that’s mostly a misconception. Misconceptions in Eve lead to all sorts of crap in this game:
“Highsec is safe” is a great example.
“Concord will protect you” is another.
“Gankers are sociopaths” is one of the worst, and is really misleading especially to new people who already think that they should be safe, no one has the right to attack them and so on. Some of this stuff compounds other misconceptions and the result is a lot of rage quiting and ranting on various platforms.
The problem is that in the instance of these two getting help in this thread it’s a singular event limited to two players. This sort of thing happens in Rookie Chat all the time but it’s literally impossible to help on this level everyone on a constant basis in a single chat channel.
I think that a big part of this problem is that when you are new you have two main sources of help, Rookie Chat which is an avalanche of people all talking at once and an NPC corporations chat channel which can be a source of good information sometimes and a lot of nasty crap at others. Creating something else, real player corporations that players go into after they complete the tutorials and career agent missions for a real education would be great. Bluelysian had a perfect corporation for this and suggested it be used in exactly this way to CCP only to be ignored.
Maybe if CCP, who’s reasons for ignoring this suggestion I do not know don’t want to go that way the next best thing would be to draft all new players into Faction Warfare for some amount of time. How much time I’m not sure, but maybe untill they have accomplished at least once all of the things Faction Warfare entails.
The main thing is to get new players from falling into a rut in their first few days or weeks and I suppose months. This rut problem is why so many new people think they only have one real option, mining. Mining is far from the most engaging part of Eve, it breeds intense boredom, people go afk, they get ganked, this pisses them off, they freak out and never really progress other than into increasingly gank-worthy ships. It also breeds contempt for PvP and the people who enjoy it, it creates an atmosphere of highsec hostility for other parts of space, and creates a large group of people who are kind of disconnected from what Eve is, a war zone. Obviously I’m generalizing again here but you get the idea. This is only if they last long enough to end up in the rut in the first place. I suspect that most don’t. I would bet that a lot of people quit the first time their Venture gets blown up by belt rats because they don’t even know what belt rats are.
Personally I’m not sure that Faction Warfare is the ideal place, Militia Chat can be as nasty as some of the worst chat channels in Eve and people are constantly getting mocked for not knowing how things work, being trolled by some really unpleasant individuals, or even getting good advice and not knowing what to believe.
I think I missed a huge opportunity by not knowing of Red vs Blue untill after it died, or rather untill after it was killed. The next best thing that could have happened would have been to be inducted into my factions militia. I would have had a much better foundation to work from if I had.
So this is exactly something i have been expecting.
One of key operational aspects in my project was “FRAMING”
Framing was very important aspect in Orientation Process .
Let me explain . I did seek and accept players in to corporation as early stage as possible. Mostly even Before they do any tutorial ( because tutorial sucks and my stadart initiation can provide them in half of the tutorial time and 3 times more info in the limits of their digestion limits. ) ( for example : in current tutorial you need to reach out to concord missions by slow boating and make 3 missions untill aura points out activate ■■■■■■■ AB. ) ( people are not mentally deficit as CCP did assume in many parts of the tutorial, they need to know how to make )deduction , induction and so many other fine techniques on the stage of planning programming but … what i know how i am… )
Where were we? Yes before they do tutorial…All these ideas he had up there… developed out of his exterience in game … what he read in rookie help , what people say, what he has experienced in first hand … he creates his mental map about the game ,. Some chained ideas write or wrong … bit from this bit from that…
Those thoughts induces lot of negative feelings and negative feelings supports and induces even more negativity… and his actions and the way he is reflects creates a situation what we experienced…
Take 2 person … one is oriented and aware about all those things just after he start playing in first 30 min and this person stays in enviroment with very compassionate and acknowledgeable veterans in next first days and weeks …
Our mental frames effects directly how we are handling the situations , how we give them meaning , how we are making sense out of it …
Thats same mechanism i have explained up there with CBT. This is directly cohnitive behavioural approach to that much complicated and interconnected subject …
Result :
Pilots i have been begin to train from very early stage ….
Never ever come to me with this kind of ridiculous attitudes.
They have been cool and I never seen them raging on anything .
They always evaluate the situations very mature and some of them has even more strong than very old EVE players even you consider they are weak in economical and ingame knowledge sense in real but they were all confident and aware about where they are standing .
Those pilots i grow also had been learning very quick because they were not under stress more than games excitement aspect required to have some fun and relieve . They had fun they love and enjoy it.
And they had been in awe around the beautifull mechanics of this game …
And they actively and confidentally begin to help newer players than them very eagerly. And they effectively did that and they enjoyed.
i have framed well on valuing knowledge, understanding, patience , and piloting skills over isk, skill point and ■■■■ loads of other secondary things comes itself over time …
It was simply not a COrporation… IT WAS A PROJECT . Well detailed planned and framed approach .
ONE OF THE HARDEST THING IN THE WORLD IS BREAKING THE PREJUDGES
YOUR BEST BET IS ORIENTING NEW PLAYERS WELL BEFORE THESE MISCONCEPTIONS BUILD UP…
In that example in forum … many veteran pilots we tried to explain give examples… i need to give one heads up about his attitude … we kept it positive … because:
What i have observed :
VETERANS in this thread who aproach the case counsciously … they all have Compassion, Experience , Understanding, patience …
I have been also eager share these with community so i made a presentation for last fanfes in Iceland.
CCP never listen me. Never took me serious either .
Problems i have experienced in game mostly sourced by “my niche game play : which actually i have been trying to do something must be legitimised by CCP. “
Last one year i had been harassed blamed by being scammer liar and many other things beside sexuall ongoing harassment . Which i have been told its all normal i need to get used to .
Whenever i did react … i never get and help or support from CCP. Mikes school bus project adverted in CCP s own channels . While what i have been doing was serious threat for many corps who wants to recruit they did everything to dip me into ■■■■ … And it was hard to take all those stuff while all i have been doing actually serve to all of them… Well come to EvE reality i guess… …
I couldnt explain the CCP they didnt listen either.
What i did was something I SHOULDN’T
CCP threated me like some kind of sick person . They didnt listen and they didnt show any interest . I have been processing this project to bring some ground solution for new player retention issues. Along with increasin pvp player / players with pvp awareness of polulation in new eden They told me i shouldnt play this game . Because my interest lvl , my dedication, alturism and me using my brain not for make profit for myself , backstabing others but to serve community didnt seem so NORMAL to them.and my sadness didnt seem normal to them after all heavy work i did for the comunity for years .And result of it. @CCP_Dopamine@CCP_Fleebix .i dont play anymore… happy ? Ahm also that AIR is far from being accurate in order to some basic educational planning strategies. Counterproductive and just stay as something average while could be something awsome and really effective. And you cannot optimise it with this feedback method when its that much lack of integrity … Some nice ideas there yes but with bad executions Officially amatour work. Did you get some help from any specialist ? Fire please. Its ■■■■■■■ brilliant to sent new player to low sec with ZERO orientation . If old player sent that new player to low in first day without knowing you call it griefing, im reading comments … some old player suggest says get it from market you dont have to go to low sec. … new player: “-market???” Lol
Ahm also … OF COURSE I AM NOT NORMAL… normal people run from disaster in rl… im customised to run through in every condition … and bring some good …
CCP has a long history of either ignoring imput or, at the very least, devaluating its possible worth when it comes from outside their own development team and the company group think. Even the CSM, which is usually composed of or at least getting advice from the most knowledgeable players, have faced an uphill battle to make significant changes when it conflicts or runs outside a direction CCP wants the game to go. The mantra “CCP knows best” has been repeatedly shown to be inaccurate, even when CCP itself reverses or frequently changes basic gameplay.
So the main choices for players appear to either resign yourself to the status quo, keep tilting at windmills in here, Reddit, and chat channels, or quit. At least one developer has publically stated his preference for what you do and, based on areas I travel through and live in the game, it appears that many are following his suggestion. Which is sad.
i did quit the game . But i cannot quit the community . This is a video game . one day those servers will shut down… But community and all connections we have build up with people, meet in real live over continents will survive… those DEV s will look for other jobs… We dont know them… and We will not remember them …
i have a small server real life friends and like 50 people and people I am honored to meet and share good and bad times together from EvE…
Unfortunately because of ■■■■ RVB management pulled… i have lost connection with many old friends … and covering up very sloowly…
if you read the post… I can tell you… i have wrote very mildly and i didnt used some extreme idiotic examples of their applications… because i was aware i will public it .
they think they know the Best…
there is a name for this in psychology:
The Dunning–Kruger effect
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.1
IN most primitive lvl. my last hope is… I really want to believe that this is a profit oriented company … Means someone over there really consider about their employees competence …
What we know? Really ? May be upper management forcing DEV s for that lvl of out of fact out of science applications…
Up there i just give some very simple examples… I want to write about that AIR and NPE but … i really really don’t know how to tell that much counterproductive and un conscious things i see …
Yes Im tired… resentful, i have experienced lot of ■■■■ that i didn’t deserved…
But I m not whining here
I do bring explanations to reasons and and solutions .
Glad this thing has had more time to develop before I gave my little two iskies. The sensationalism alone was enough to provoke my fingers to reply. Now allow me to become sensational in my own way:
Doctor: What seems to be the problem?
Patient: Well, Doc, uh, where do I begin?
Doctor: We can talk about anything you’d prefer. How about starting with why you’re here?
Patient: Oh, okay. Well, you see, I was part of this one group for a very long time. I helped many people and even held a position of authority over some of the younger ones over a period of time. We all accomplished great things, but due to conspirators, I have lost my right to membership in this group. It has been very upsetting to me that I am no longer able to help anyone deal with their trauma, which must be so much more worse now that I am gone. Things have to change and, well, since I see no other means of helping anyone now, I figured I’d just come talk to you first.
Doctor: I see. So you wish for this discourse to bring you some sort of solution? That is good. Perhaps I can help, after all. You are willing to believe this can work. You’re almost there already. I just need to ask a few more questions and you’ll have said all you can say.
Patient: Okay, hahaha. I thought I would be the one talking a bunch.
Doctor: Oh yes, sure, maybe if I’d let you. That would surely cost you many monies over the course of many sessions. I believe I can put it to you straight.
Patient: Is that right? What do you mean?
Doctor: You have spoken often of conspirators affecting the outcome of your life. You have also spoken often of others needing help getting over their trauma. I would posit right here that you are the only conspirator out to ruin your station in life and that you and the one who needs to get over their trauma.
Patient: Ha! You are outright denying that anyone else could have any direct influence on how reality takes shape? You are a solipsist, good sir, and I will have no more of this tomfoolery.
Doctor: Funny, that! I was going to say the same to you. For now, you resist my influence, that of the other, when it is most convenient to your hypothetical arguments. Will you only accept that of the other when they pander to you for help? Will you not see what is being repeated to you, over and over?
Patient: This has nothing to do with my problem!
Doctor: You are projecting your own psychology onto other avatars in a video game. You are attaching emotional significance to text online with other traumatic experiences in real life. You just can’t stop being mad at these “conspirators” so much so that it is distracting you from doing what you claim you want to do, which is helping. Seeing me will not help you.
Patient: You’re a psycholgist, you’re supposed to help me!
Doctor: Says who? I listen and I imprint my patterns on you. You pay me to diagnose you properly and remain objective. This is what I see. You must forgive other who have harmed you in your past before you can see future harm for what it really is.
Patient: And what is it when one harms another to you, Doc?
Doctor: Part of communication.
Forgive me for having fun, but damn. I can’t tell where the truth or alts begin and the slander ends, but what I do know is: quality post, OP! I hope you continue helping others.
Seem like you reflect yourself both on patient and doctor…
I guess that doctor isss….
PROCTOLOG … because even at 2. Year in uni mental heath professionals begin to build up muscles around communications skills…
And this proctolog… burchered all of them in one go …
Patient seem to me like have a prostat problem … dont know really… but definately MALE ! Its very clean
And patient is you also
If you need help you know where to find me … Even i quit the game … i do still help people and my connections are still there… mostly …
If they kicked your ass do not cry… please…
They already ■■■■ themselves soo deep and so painfull… there is noone ingame in thier side to hear their screams… They are done for good. They do lick themselves and hide behind the curtains,
Just let me know who it is… i know so many good people in eve … And our respect is mutual…
