Many folks have already said the obvious-- far too many resources easy to get in NS, whether it was easy risk free ratting, or stupidly effective mining capitals that can be run semi-afk-- from that comes most of the rest of the problems–rapid combat power growth making wormhole and rat threats irrelevant, so many structures few alliances want to do the grind, awash in so much income that purchasing hundreds of cloaky alts to shut down entire regions was no big expense, game mechanics that meant a well organized fully upgraded single region could out build almost all of the rest of less-well organized New Eden, and lastly a New Eden economy so flushed with mins that T1 caps plunged in prices in a strong positive feedback loop adding to the problem.
I also think it’s going to take more than BO or cyno changes to put the genie back in the bottle–looking forward to seeing even more choas.
elucidate [ Sorry couldn’t resist, don’t hate me]
Personally i think part of his problem is - Razor is no longer part of the Imperium.
He has been unable to just slot back into his earlier (2013) life in Eve.
Yeah, typo. Fingers got ahead of the brain. It happens. And I can appreciate getting corrected.
As opposed to all those T2 capitals, right? When you find one, lemme know.
And no, you’re actually wrong on those. Those are, in fact, exactly the mid-level complications I was talking about. Lemme show you what I mean.
Ratting’s been pretty much this risk free forever. Used to be you’d rat in an Ishtar or VNI (and by that, I mean 2013-14), or a Vindicator (even earlier), and be… well, pretty much perfectly safe. You watch the intel channels, you keep an eye on Local, and you’re golden. The escalation into ratting carriers started 5 years ago. Ratting supers are just the latest form of that. That escalation isn’t because making money is risk-free, it’s because of underlying conditions we’ll get to in a moment.
Similarly, mining values have exploded with the Rorq, yes. And yes, the Rorq is stupidly effective. Totally agree there. But the Rorq being stupidly effective isn’t a root cause, it’s a result of the ultimate root cause. Should they beat the Rorq a bit harder with the nerf bat? Sure. Does anomaly respawn rate really impact that? Not one little bit. Here’s how you can tell: If you go into the most heavily-mined pocket in Delve, there are anomalies up. Those anomalies have rocks other than Mercoxit in them.
That means they’re not being mined as absolutely fast as they could be. The respawn rate isn’t the limiter, because the miners aren’t coming up against the respawn rate. So reducing the amount of minerals available isn’t really your primary tool for limiting the explosion of mining. More importantly, though, mineral abundance isn’t a bad thing.
Mineral abundance means the cost of building ships goes down. If the cost of building ships goes down, the cost of losing ships goes down, which means more people should be willing to lose ships. And in the case of T1 subcaps, we’ve generally seen that: people are perfectly happy throwing them away en masse. I mean, hell, at one point, there were 3-way fights in Perimeter between null-blocs where whole fleets of Feroxes weren’t fielding logi because the cost didn’t matter, and there was more to be gained from maxing out DPS and just reshipping on the wave of endless T1 battlecruisers being built.
T2 prices, OTOH, have been rising ever seen the moon changes, in large part due to the fact that most of nullsec didn’t want to actually work. They wanted free ISK from passive moon-mining, rather than having to actually put their butts in ships and go mine. So the amount of moongoo on the market went down, and the prices went up. Which pushed most groups into looking for ships they wouldn’t lose so much. Like Muninns.
And this touches back on some things you said:
You mean like Horde did to Pure Blind and Fade 4 years ago? Cloaky alts aren’t exactly expensive. An interceptor w/a T1 cloak is all you need.
Except it wasn’t a question of organization. Once again, it was purely an issue of people willing to actually go and mine. Everyone had that capability. We all know that. You can’t tell me the group that pioneered the use of the Rorqual as a jump-hictor (PanFam) didn’t have the ability to fly them. They just didn’t want to mine. Killah even said as much during one appearance on… I don’t remember if it was TiS, the Meta Show, Open Comms, or what. He flat out said that Vince Draken didn’t want NCdot pilots mining. Everyone knew damned well that CCP’s mechanics changes meant the people who did the work would get the benefits of that work, but the ElitePvP crowd didn’t want their people doing it[1].
So now someone who lives in Syndicate is gonna come lecturing us about how horrible it was for us to actually be willing to do the work? You really think that’s a sane position to take? Do you think it’s better for the game, long-term, to not reward people for being willing to put time and effort into things?
But I digress…
Except again, that’s not the problem. Having cheap capitals out there isn’t a bad thing, just like having cheaper subcaps out there isn’t a bad thing.
The bad thing is them not blowing up.
The problem. The underlying problem isn’t that that there’s all this wealth and ISK flowing into the game, it’s that it’s not flowing out again. And that’s what CCP has absolutely no idea how to fix. None. They don’t know how to fix it because they don’t know why it’s not happening. And they don’t know why it’s not happening because they don’t pay attention to how people behave, and they don’t understand the circular structure they made inevitable.
That’s the whole ‘you need supers to hold space, and you need space to build supers, so nobody’s going to risk losing all their supers, which means no major wars, and no massive numbers of dead supers… so we’re in an endless cycle of ever-more-supers in the game’. They need to make it so supers either aren’t the thing you need to hold space… or… no, really, that’s about it. That’s the thing. How they do that… there’s a lot of different ideas out there. But as long as the only way to really hold your space hinges on having space in the first place, nobody’s going to be willing to risk the only thing that can let them recover from losing all their space.
And at this point, when it’s been spelled out to them in very small, easy-to-understand words many, many times, I can only believe that they don’t understand it because they choose not to understand it. And that brings us to the real root cause.
The real root cause is that CCP isn’t willing to make serious changes to the game. They’re not willing to make significant, systemic changes that actually have a considerable impact. They want to make tiny little reactionary tweaks here and there, fiddle with a few numbers, and then go ‘LOOK! You see?!? It all worked out perfeOOH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED AAAAH WE HAVE TO FIX IT!!!’ again and again and again and again.
The Blackout, the cyno changes, the whole ‘era of chaos’… that’s all it is. There’s no really big systemic changes here that address the underlying problems. They don’t address the reasons people aren’t engaging in major wars. We just burned down a whole region 2 months ago, remember? I can’t even call that a war, because one side didn’t show up. They didn’t have any reason to be willing to lose their combat assets. Even if there was a chance to win, that wouldn’t have been enough reason to risk it, because the cost of victory would’ve been more than the cost of retreat and reconstruction.
And nothing CCP’s done in the last 2 months even hints at them understanding that simple fact. Because they don’t want to understand it. Understanding it, acknowledging it, that means having to actually do something about it. It means rolling up their sleeves and doing a whole lot of work. And the guys running the show don’t want that. They want to throw ideas out and have the actual devs (like Rise) who do actually do the work, and who, I’m sure, would even be willing to tackle real problems, have those ideas ready in a month so they can prance around on a stream talking about how awesome it is, and how their whole idea came from a book somewhere that they read and thought ‘I can apply this to EVE with no actual thought involved! YAY!’
The relationship between holding space, and a supercapital fleet, is the ultimate centerpiece of the problem. We’ve seen that going back at least as far as 2013-14’s Halloween war. It’s not the supercapitals themselves, it’s the fact that you need them. They’re just too damned powerful against anything that isn’t them, no matter how many subs you bring. And as more and more of them have come into existence, that’s only gotten more and more pronounced.
That’s the centerpiece of the primary, root problem, it’s the nice showy ‘look at that’ in the problem… but it’s not the root problem. The root problem is CCP being so damned eager to parade in front of a crowd, being it on stage or on reddit, and say ‘look at how we’re totally fixing the game’ that they aren’t willing to take the time, and put in the work, to actually fix the game.
EVE’s problems are systemic. They won’t be fixed by a few minor changes here or there. And increasingly they include CCP.
1 This is actually part of the whole ‘give back passive moon-mining, it was such a great conflict driver’ bullcrap, too. Nothing prevents people from fighting over moons now. The moon is still there. The goo is still there. There is still a structure there. You can blow up Refineries. There is nothing that keeps people from going after an Athanor. The reason you don’t see LS groups, or the ElitePvP crowd of nullsec doing it, isn’t because they can’t fight over the moon… it’s because they don’t want to do what comes next: they don’t want to actually have to work for their ISK. Well, suck it up, Buttercup. Nobody should be bitching about ‘risk-free isk’ while advocating any kind of preference for passive income like the old moon POS’s.
A rather long winded post I’m not inclined to read because you want to quibble about level of causes which I already explained the ultimate cause and you chose to confuse with the results (proximate ones), as if my entire post about about the ultimate cause.
You are also missing some of the points. I never said there were T2 caps-- in fact one of the big proximate causes is they are T1–meaning the huge mining capability tied directly to easy building of caps. We know the results, a game that five years ago didnt’ have many supers because they were 25m+ (effectively 40m or so based on inflation and a 1/3 of that price now).
Well, considering your post was in response to, and quoted:
I don’t think it’s all that much of a stretch to say that in answering a question about ‘real root cause’, you might be expected to address, I dunno, the real root cause.
No, you simply specified ‘T1 caps’, and I was poking fun at that meaningless distinction.
And if the game mechanics hadn’t changed at all over the last five years, we’d still see a massive explosion in supercapital numbers, because production always exceeded destruction. So claiming it’s because of the Rorquals is silly. The Rorqs didn’t cause the problem. The Rorqs are a symptom, and one that accelerated the curve, but treating the symptom won’t fix the problem they’re a symptom of.
It’s not silly to point out positive feedbacks that accelerate a sequence of events-- sure the supercap problem (a proximate cause) was probably inevitable but it might have taken ten years instead of 3 years to get to a bad place in the game. With time would have been more opportunities for the developers (their analysis and programming ability is finite) to adjust things. If you have a military background you might be familiar with OODA loop which in this means the players and game mechanics were acting to fundamentally change the game in ways CCP couldn’t keep up with.
It was already at a bad place in the game. It was in 2014, when the Wrecking Ball meant the only way to dislodge N3 from space they were renting out involved bringing our own supercapital fleet across the entire game.
And yes, I am familiar with the OODA loop. My point is that you are failing at the first O.
Edit: that’s not entirely fair of me. You’re just not going deeply enough. You’re seeing things as causes, but they’re not. They’re not even second-order effects. They’re third- or fourth-order influences that exacerbate the underlying condition, but addressing them doesn’t actually reverse any of the effects now, and it doesn’t address any of the underlying issues that gave rise to them.
And that’s all CCP’s doing. They’re trying to treat symptoms. Going to the doctor for a recurring headache and getting prescribed some pain meds is great, but it won’t take the large chunk of metal out of the back of your skull. CCP hasn’t shown any indication of even understanding that there’s a chunk of metal sticking out of EVE’s head. There’s been not even a single acknowledgement of ‘ok, so these issues are deeper and more systemic than just sinks and faucets, and we need to address them’. In fact, Rise was talking about how everything looks good now and it’s time to open up the faucets again.
It doesn’t look good now. It looks like they haven’t actually changed any of the factors that got us where we are. It looks like they don’t even understand what those factors are. And it looks like they don’t much care to understand them.
You waste your time explaining to him. He does not get it that plex buyers are basically buying game passes for other players. He probably would ignore kids enjoyment in his amusement park because hey the parents bought the tickets. He would have Talk Radio rides.
And just to make this point on its own: If CCP opens up the faucets now, if they do that with any idea that the current state is either ‘balanced’ or in a deficit at all, while Delve is showing growth but the rest of Null is showing catastrophic losses? Then they’re setting up a unipolar superpower. They’re setting up the game to be utterly dominated by one group to a degree that is so unbalanced, it makes the current landscape look like a perfectly flat, featureless plain.
Band-aids and tweaks won’t fix this. There needs to be structural changes. Big things.
The first thing CCP needs to do before any changes to faucets is fix the ability where players can use multiple Rorquals.
I’m not talking about the guy who has 1 or 2, I’m talking about those who run 30+ for hours at a time.
This was without a doubt the biggest failing of Rorqual changes in the first place and if they are to stand any chance of “fixing” any of the issues relating to mineral supply, too much isk in players hands, too many caps/supers being produced - this is where they need to start.
I admit it won’t “fix” much but it may slow down the decline into complete stagnancy. Give CCP a chance to play catchup and put in some actual development to bring about real change.
I remember about a year ago killing 28 of 35 Rorquals and a Nyx belonging to one player (all the names were the same bar a slight change to each one).
The very next day, less than 24 hours later - He was back, in the same system with his full fleet of Rorquals.
It’s not attacking the person at all. It’s an observation based on evidence. If it were attacking the person, for one, it would make a statement about the person. It doesn’t. It makes a statement about nullsec, using the evidence of the person’s killboard.
Though I will grant that you are absolutely the expert here on not being able to refute people’s arguments. But usually, you just clam up for a day or two.
So, once again:
How do you see all this playing out in a way that is ‘great for the long term of this game’? You still haven’t answered that simple question. After all, if you think it’s a positive, you must have some idea of what that positive impact will look like.
At least she didn’t cloak behind “that’s not my main character posting” I think Elwha took it with good attitude and in the best of ways.
It was premature to post a conclusion about BO in direct contradiction to experience and background. Needless to say, without a thorough revision of at least the recent thread activity.
I don’t expect for anyone to read it all but will refute any intermission without the correct paperwork. no matter the personal preference or opinion.
So whoever shows up with void assumptions surely must have shoulder mass to receive and accept scrutiny. We have discussed long enough to understand when a post is a simple, personal opinion or a troll attempt on target practice. But never forget it’s a forum, not a poll. So back it up, babe.
I admit having posted derivative arguments procuring to strike a nerve and see reactions so I can ponder the discussion level. And I think the level is adequate but to keep it that way or improve it, one must keep trolls and Neanderthals at bay.
BTW, I use the term Neanderthal as reference to an individual who refuses to evolve and improve. I hope no one takes it otherwise.
And they wont care as long as they are not challenged publicly on every aspect of their work. As long as they can go out and spew BS, without having their asses kicked, they wont care to understand.
I read very often CCP dont care about the Forum and what we are talking about.
Be sure that nearly everyone at CCP is reading this Forum.
And maybe or not they talk to us incognito.
Next topic … Umbrella
Which alliance except GOONs is able to use supercap umbrella.
I will tell you what.
You cant kill a small triglavian frig gang with a super if they use their remote chain.
I tried it believe me.
It is unbelievable how overpowered triglavian ships are.
And there are a lot of kikis around in the eve universe right now.
Noone want to fly another ship anymore.
Drekavac, Leshak, Kikimora CCP made big mistake with that race.
When CCP made big game changes in the past they started a survey about it.
Please CCP start a survey about your “Era of chaos” .
Topics
Blackout, Triglavians …
CCP didnt heard the concerns of the community to long.
Please CCP do t now.
We all love EVE
Games come and go but EVE was always present.
Once EVE always EVE.
But with your Era of Chaos you broke that chain.
Most people wanna grind to chill afterworks so let them do it.
The SOV holding alliances claimed their homes, its only fair if you give them a remedy against attackers.
Local with Intel is the advantage that the sov holders need, want and deserved.
If you want to brake the pink donut ask the community.
You will get a lot of feedback that you can discuss in your new named offices.
Eve players are proud.
Dont hear what the trolls telling you.
Make polls here start surveys you will wonder about the feedback.
There are a lot of very clever and smart players.
Just my last 2 cent to that topic.
I have 6 days omega left and eve is unplayable for me now after 11 years holding flag
I don’t know if the next topic should be Umbrella, I think it could be cloaks, if BO remains active till the end of EVE.
Yes, most groups do have Super Umbrella capability and actually count on that capability in order to bait a kind of fight not often happens. It’s worthless to me.
This is why I welcome the cyno changes. I don’t know if they will actually work as I think they will but my guess is that maybe these changes will reduce some Supercap and similar projection.
More specifically, I hope cyno changes will bring those hulls a bit back to their intended functionality. It is embarrassing, to say the least, seeing a Revelation or a Nag gating around or toasting as if some imbecile bully was piloting it.
Maybe these changes or a pile of band-aids over it will bring some coherence to Supercaps and alike functions. And I don’t see those changes working so well if the BO is completely removed.
And I can appreciate getting corrected.