Local Comms Blackout - Discussion Thread - Part Deux!

[Abe_Rollin]

It’s only a race if you have more than one competitor.

…and the only reason for an arms race is fear, the fear of being beaten again, a fear so strong that all you do is grind to build massive defenses and throw the occasional no-risk foray into enemy territory to alleviate the boredom of it all.

EDIT: I quite liked the idea that once you got to a Titian you were stuck in it - but now you can dock. Maybe you should be given a notification " Due to the complexity of flying a Titian once your pod enters the command console you will not be able to disembark from the ship "

[Arrendis]

I dunno, I burned out on raiding in Frozen Throne. Right now I just play LotRO for the story and the setting, I don’t do raiding or anything like that. Having the ZOMG BEST IN SLOT crap is something I’ve never needed.

@Abe_Rollin

It’s only a race if you have more than one competitor.

…and the only reason for an arms race is fear, the fear of being beaten again, a fear so strong that all you do is grind to build massive defenses and throw the occasional no-risk foray into enemy territory to alleviate the boredom of it all.

Fear? Not always. But then we’re back to hate.

[Machine_Spirit]

This is all we wanted to say about the Invented Event from the CCP - they have all the opinions and suggestions !!! And this is all due to the fact that it was a “company”. And now - this is an ultimatum “office” with a close vision of the situation !!! Cheers cretinism!
I do not just “criticize” them !!! I in fact and for the cause! So kill online, so break and destroy “corporations”, alliances … and all for what ??? “Scratch your own?” And it’s a shame that they stuck their “head in the sand” and keep silent !!! Who are they? Developer? Not! this is a bunch of naughty non-developers!

[Abe_Rollin]

I see, you’re meaning that you hate that you got beaten - I can see why you would fear that it could happen again

[Arrendis]

Oh no. The hate predates the loss. If anything, the loss was good for us: we trimmed the dead weight, and fixed our org structure. Don’t get me wrong, we didn’t like it… but it was still good for us.

No, the hate goes back over 10 years, to the old days of BoB.

[Ikri]

Any change that puts an unfair weight or load in one side alone is wrong and will make people angry.
They are rewarding mediocrity by punishing the more organized and wealthier player base.

There is a mechanic in game that dictates how much u gain based on risk. What they did was to remove the cruiser or BS players ability to generate income at null. Leaving only capital class ships that have a chance to call for help.

WH have its own mechanic and its a closed space with less connections and harder to get in and easier to defend. That´s why have no local and higher rewards. We cant lockdown nullsec.

EVE is a sandbox all the most interesting stories come from nullsec and its wars. What they did was just make harder to replenish assets. and steep the curve to access capital ships.

Meanwhile make the life opportunity gankers easier. And that what mostly annoys me. I already disliked the people that prey ratting/mining ships. And now CCP basicaly said that its fine. Meaning they enforce and reward the BULLY behavior instead of rewarding more fair fights and behavior.
I saw a killmail the other day, a guy lost 10 + mining ships to bombers in a single hit. How is that fair if he even couldn’t see them arriving? He had the time and the will to escalate his gameplay and had all the right to his profits.
The nullsec players are the drive of the eve economy, check the monthly report. the assets build, and exports.
A big part of the sold Plex at the markets go to this people. Indirectly they generate the most income to CCP.
I m on the losing side, i like to rat and mine, generate wealth, thats EVE for me.

It was a really bad move from CCP specially because rewards the wrong kind of people. Remove Concord from Hsec, remove local from lowsec. Make things fair to everyone.

If some of you cant understand just see the video and ignore the audio. Its self explanatory enough.

[Abe_Rollin]

@Ikri

I saw a killmail the other day, a guy lost 10 + mining ships to bombers in a single hit. How is that fair if he even couldn’t see them arriving? He had the time and the will to escalate his gameplay and had all the right to his profits.

From the way this is written - One person is controlling 10 ships.
If the fleet commander does a fleet warp, ships not scrammed will get away but as this didn’t happen then most or all must have been scrammed - which would mean it was 1 player vs multiple players.

Why would you think a single multi-tasking player vs several single-tasking players would ever result in the single player not getting stepped on ?

[Ikri]

Any miner would die to weapon fitted ship, single account or multboxing. The guy knew the risks to mine in null.
The issue is that he couldn’t see it coming.
As hundreds of other ships with 14 au scan range that died recently.

CCP just added a lot of safe targets to people shoot at. Ruining other people gameplay to a small amount of pvp players.

[Abe_Rollin]

In this scenario - you have it the wrong way round - a SINGLE multiboxing miner, that could see a gang arrive in system due to ‘reds in local’ would ruin the gameplay of SEVERAL players not multiboxing.

• Blackout of local removed a single player’s ability to ruin the gameplay of several other players

Also = Isk vs risk ,
Put a spotter on a gate = yield -10% per gate
Add a warp stab to avoid a long point -1/3 yield
Add 2 warp stabs to avoid scram -2/3 yield

Not being AFK - priceless

[Arctanis]

I’ve enjoyed the blackout as a lowsec and npc 0.0 dweller who also roams sov null.

[darkestkhan_Eriker]

@dewk

There should be a 5-10second invul on any ship undocking, to stop ganking of ships still in black screen.

dude, it already is there - that invulernability window. IIRC it is 7s long.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Arrendis

This is a problem every game designer, GM, Dungeon Master, etc etc is familiar with: no matter how smart you are, the players outnumber you.

The problem is that CCP doesn’t listen to its player base. Trolleceptors didn’t take some mystic genius in the depths of “Mom’s Basement” to cook up. It was as obvious as a catalyst closing in on a retriever in a mining belt.

@Arrendis

You make a change that can be easily undone if you have to. It’s one that doesn’t require any prep, no additional coded systems to invest developer time in, etc. And you start collecting data on how people adapt, and what they do in response.

The technical means to undo the change are easy, the ecological changes are not. Imagine a pot filled with frogs. The temperature is changed until the water boils and the frogs die. Its ‘technically’ easy to undo the changes and let the water go back to its original temperature, doesn’t make the frogs reappear.

@Arrendis

That’s a double-edged sword, and always was. It leads to things like ‘we’ve got 1400 people in local, why can’t we fill a fleet?’

Don’t goons use some kind of participation link thingy? Was local even useful before the change if there were a hundred all in the same system, unless your members rotated their screen 90 degrees and played eve in portrait mode?

@Arrendis

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAAHAH.

Ditto. Some people just think they are entitled to a ‘make shiny kill mail’ button.

@Arrendis

You need some level of experience and competence to survive holding sov, even if it’s just at the leadership level.

These days you need a bunch of IT infrastructure to ping people out of game for when stuff gets shot at too.

@Arrendis

Go to HS, keep an eye on a moon w/good ore, and then just mine the ■■■■ out of it when it fracks. The owners of the refinery can’t stop you! If you don’t have your own structure in space, they can’t even wardec you! What’re they going to do, gank you? Keep it up long enough, and you’ll tank their sec status and get them locked out of their own system.

Why are we the only ones who find this pathway so obvious? Does everyone else stink at eve, or are we just so old everything is ‘been there, done that’ to us?

@Arrendis

Or use a Dominix, if you want more money for less disposability.

That’s probably one of the best things about the changes to the VNI and the blackout, less afk anomaly spinners.

@Hillbert_Alexis

So lets watch all major groups consolidate down, all hunters run out of targets except those, said targets supported by all manner of capitals, rorqs switching from losing excavators to just boosting and pretty much anything and everything else that makes it harder to find decent pvp content.

Please let this day pass soon.

@Arrendis

There is no reason to switch from a hull with 1.48M ehp that shrugs off as much as 35k incoming dps, and doesn’t need to gate around in favor of a hull that’s vulnerable on gates, can get up to 90% of the yield, but only has 28.4k EHP and no active local reps. And that’s a Hulk with Rorq boosts .

One active industrial core per anomaly. That’s the kind of change CCP needs to try.

[Ikri]

So the function of the miner is to serve as content to the pvp?
Meaning Nullsec players willing must abide from all security and become content? What about his time, what he want to do in game.

Even if he wasnt afk, the point is that he was blind. The attackers could have used a WH. Or logged off in system, the result would be the same.

If you want to hunt blind people fine. So lets make all areas blind to attackers and be fair in mediocrity.
Lets add Attacker timer- he has a 5 sec advantage to scram when on grid.
or better lets add an tax for wealth. If the target has more wealth than the attacker they receive 20% more dmg. And if its a capital they cant use a cyno for 2 minutes.

Again, they are punishing the more organized and wealth regions. Just to give easy kills.

I have seen this in other games. some people hate the ´overachiever´, the kings, the big corps. The one with the most shinny toys. Input any nullsec corp here.
But never saw a position as arbitrary to one group as this one.

[Arrendis]

@Ikri

I saw a killmail the other day, a guy lost 10 + mining ships to bombers in a single hit.

Citation? I mean, when you say ‘a single hit’, you don’t mean ‘each bomber fired one bomb and all the mining ships died’, do you? Because if so… good. That’s someone who’s not fitting any tank at all to their ships.

A fleet of 10+ mining ships… that could be anything from 10 Ventures to 10 Rorquals. Personally, I’m gonna assume Exhumers, because it’s null.

10 Exhumers, without a Rorq, is probably 10 Mackinaws, due to the ore hold size. Given a reasonable tank, it’s running around 30-35k ehp. A bomber does about 8k per bomb, so if they’re all clustered up, yeah, 5-6 bombers should be enough. But why would you have them all clustered up? The Mack’s got 15km range on its strip miners to start, why not just spread them out so they can’t all be bombed at once?

@Ikri

I already disliked the people that prey ratting/mining ships. And now CCP basicaly said that its fine. Meaning they enforce and reward the BULLY behavior instead of rewarding more fair fights and behavior.

Welcome to EVE, circa… basically always. Ganking’s a thing. Get used to it.

@Ikri

It was a really bad move from CCP specially because rewards the wrong kind of people. Remove Concord from Hsec, remove local from lowsec. Make things fair to everyone.

Low and highsec are already far less rewarding than null is, day-to-day. Unless you’re talking market trading, which doesn’t run any risks at all.

Welcome to nullsec. It’s dangerous out here. And we are not nice people.

@Litsea_Reticulata

The problem is that CCP doesn’t listen to its player base.

That is an issue, yes. Hopefully, it’s one they’re learning to pay attention to. But at the same time, who do they listen to? If they listen to the people who actually have a clue and know how things work, they get accused of bias. If they listen to everyone, they end up hearing a whole bunch of contradictory crap.

@Litsea_Reticulata

The temperature is changed until the water boils and the frogs die. Its ‘technically’ easy to undo the changes and let the water go back to its original temperature, doesn’t make the frogs reappear.

The flaws in the analogy here are that a)not all the frogs die, and b)‘death’ in this case is entirely reversible, if the product has intrinsic draw, and they’re not just banking on inertia.

That’s a big ‘if’, mind you, and I’m not sure I’d be putting a lot of money on ‘of course it does’… but at the same time?
Jul 22: 21:14 EVE - 23,602.
Jul 15: 21:30 EVE - 20,174
Jul 8: 21:00 EVE - 24,122
Jul 1: 21:30 EVE - 21,965

The frogs seem to be doing ok.

@Litsea_Reticulata

Don’t goons use some kind of participation link thingy?

Sure. And if we’ve only got 1400 in local in staging, it’s an off day. I wasn’t necessarily talking about us.

@Litsea_Reticulata

These days you need a bunch of IT infrastructure to ping people out of game for when stuff gets shot at too.

That, in fact, comes under ‘experience and competence’, yes.

@Litsea_Reticulata

are we just so old everything is ‘been there, done that’ to us?

Mebbe! Instant-gratification kids, I guess?

@Litsea_Reticulata

less afk anomaly spinners.

Nah. They’ll just switch to Domis and Myrms.

@Litsea_Reticulata

One active industrial core per anomaly. That’s the kind of change CCP needs to try.

Moon-fields ain’t anomalies. What’s more, if CCP were to make a change to force people out of Rorqs, after their Rorqual rebalance was so nakedly ‘We’re introducing skill injectors and doing THIS so you’ll spend REAL MONEY and inject your way up to Rorquals’ that’d be amazingly shitty of them, and it would get them bad press like wouldn’t believe.

@Ikri

So the function of the miner is to serve as content to the pvp?
Meaning Nullsec players willing must abide from all security and become content? What about his time, what he want to do in game.

The function of the miner is the same as the function of literally everyone else in sov null: Hold, use, and defend your space. Someone comes in hunting, kill them. If you cannot contribute to helping kill them, you should not be in null. Maybe contributing means making stuff for people to kill them with. Maybe it means playing bait. But if you are so against the idea of fighting back that you make yourself an easy victim… Get. Out.

[Edit for clarity: I’m not saying ‘OMG yer bad get out’, I’m saying ‘Nullsec is not the kind of place you will enjoy in the long term. You will be happier elsewhere in the game. Like highsec.’]

@Ikri

Again, they are punishing the more organized and wealth regions. Just to give easy kills.

I live in the most organized and wealthy region in the game. Our cover fleets are bored. Enemies are rolling wormholes to stay away.

CCP isn’t punishing us for shite. So if that’s the hill you wanna die on, be aware that it’s not worth trying that routine of ‘but why are you punishing the more organized regions?’, cuz they’re not. And if you’re in Delve and you’re losing ships left and right to hunters, then what the hell are you doing?

Because I know what you’re not doing: you’re not in the standing fleet. You’re not on comms listening to people discuss the movements of every enemy pack that comes through. You’re not watching the intel channels—and yes, they still work. People are reporting from d-scan now instead of local, including things like combat probes being out in a system.

And if the area you’re in isn’t doing things like that? If it’s not adapting, if it’s not taking the basic steps to dissuade hunters and/or try to hunt them when they show up? Then I really have to question its right to call itself ‘organized’.

[Gizznitt_Malikite]

There’s a lot of metrics for measuring the impact of the blackout, and while last weekend was a drop, this weekend was a return of activity. It’ll be interesting to see hard data in the coming weeks.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Arrendis

Welcome to EVE, circa… basically always . Ganking’s a thing. Get used to it.

Which is the real reason there isn’t enough PvP content, fights often degenerate into who can N+1.

@Arrendis

Low and highsec are already far less rewarding than null is, day-to-day. Unless you’re talking market trading, which doesn’t run any risks at all.

Gettting blown up because there are 30 people competent enough to read dothan waiting to circle jerk on you isn’t. Null isn’t worth it unless you’re with a block.

@Arrendis

Hopefully, it’s one they’re learning to pay attention to. But at the same time, who do they listen to?

The CSM?

(Ah ha ha)^ 10 ?

@Arrendis

The frogs seem to be doing ok.

I reactivated two accounts to get free SP and move some junk I had trapped in null since stations were a thing. I leave my account logged in to read all the drama. The PCU isn’t a metric worth anything until the free SP is over.

@Arrendis

That, in fact, comes under ‘experience and competence’, yes.

Is it PvP or PvE?

[Arrendis]

@Litsea_Reticulata

(Ah ha ha)^ 10 ?

Here: use <> instead, but [sup]10[/sup].
(Ah ha ha)¹⁰?

@Litsea_Reticulata

Is it PvP or PvE?

It’s EVE. Done properly, it is all one.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Arrendis

And we are not nice people.

I’m a fuckin’ frail flower in a meadow, I’ll have you know.

No seriously, I may be an arsehole but on average the nicest people I know in Eve are the PvPers. First few times I got my arse handed to me as a newbie, I was pretty quickly informed in a friendly manner what I had done wrong, what I should have done, how to fly to avoid being an easy target, and so on and so forth. Same deal when I go hunting, if the target that explodes acts civil, they tend to leave the altercation with more experience, more isk than they had before it started, and a contact who’ll steer them towards people and places of interest if something awakened in them.

My finest achievement in Eve is a bloodthirsty little hunter that once upon a time was a bear that got in between me and a target, and now have multiple accounts dedicated to everything from industry and trade, through lowsec, WH and null PvP. Gleefully sharing their first true solo kills, I damn near shed a tear as they’re become vastly better at Eve and PvP than I’ve ever been. One of their bear corpmates on the other hand quit Eve because he’d anchored something he couldn’t defend and lost it at my hands. I was actually sitting ready to compensate him on the down low, and share with him a more sustainable setup I’d already used with other bears without sizable fleet capabilities, but unlike the success story, this guy spent weeks salting the earth wherever he went through chat channels, forums and more. He got nothing, of course.

We are nice people, for the most part. Whenever I’ve been screwed over on a personal level in Eve, it’s always been by variants on bears. Whenever I’ve gotten support or cheering up, or basically had people coax the gun out of my mouth - mostly metaphorically speaking - it’s been some variant on PvPers. Everything from honorable duelists through efficient mercenaries or bloodthirsty gankers and warlords. This is not to say that the correlation begets causation. They’re not nice people because they are PvPers. I think, however, it’s one of the prerequisites to be a PvPer worth knowing. There’s a prerequisite maturity, a prerequisite empathy and willingness to engage with other people on a healthy competitive level.

Whenever I’ve met non-toxic people in Eve? PvPers, every last one of them. I’ve never met a non-toxic bear. There’s just too much venom in the latter, aimed at people they refuse to empathize with. Refuse to understand. Refuse to acknowledge as equal participants in the sandbox. Those willing to play rough acknowledges that others get to return the favor and there’s this unspoken agreement that the BDSM session is followed by some aftercare if warranted, and a little soothing cream for the butthurt.

After all, it’s in everyone’s best interest.

So, if you find that the PvPers aren’t being very nice to you… how have you been acting towards them, I wonder? I can assure you all, if you immediately identify yourself as a Grade A Salt Spigot, that’s exactly what you’ll be treated as. Otherwise, you just might be making new friends who will help you, nurture you, and make you capable and worthy.

… then kill you again, but this time you’ll probably like it more.

Also, the BDSM metaphor only goes so far. In Eve, there’s no one asking for consent beforehand. You did that when you undocked.

[Merovee]

Does anyone have the alpha/Omega break down of the daily login numbers? I would like to see a graph if possible.

[Arrendis]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

No seriously, I may be an arsehole but on average the nicest people I know in Eve are the PvPers.

Ten years ago, I’d have agreed with you. Last 4 or 5, I’ve seen way too many of them be absolute jackwagons in- and out-of-game. Not just to me, and not just to goons or even null pilots.

@Mizhara_Del_thul

They’re not nice people because they are PvPers. I think, however, it’s one of the prerequisites to be a PvPer worth knowing.

Not many worth knowing who’re left, I fear.

@Merovee

Does anyone have the alpha/Omega break down of the daily login numbers?

Only CCP.