Local Comms Blackout - Discussion Thread - Part Deux!

[Arrendis]

@Litsea_Reticulata

Oh, I once saw a Niddhogger cyno to a station and bounce 30 km away. It was funny to me, but probably not to the Niddhogger pilot.

It happens. The smart pilots warp off and warp back.

[Marcus_Luttrell_Khan]

@Sophia_Mileghere

In the long-term view it will be clearly a decrease

If the blackout is permanent, I would highly doubt this statement. EVE doesn’t need risk averse players in nullsec.

[Sophia_Mileghere]

We both agree on that

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Arrendis

It happens. The smart pilots warp off and warp back.

They cloaked.

[Milto_Farroads]

@Marcus_Luttrell_Khan

. There are a ton of people I know personally coming back to the game to try it out because nullsec PvP is finally doable outside of blobbing and hotdropping.

@Marcus_Luttrell_Khan

So many people saying “i won’t undock now” or something similar, it’s rubbish.

OK, I see you come with strong arguments …
If you actually, instead of basing your beliefs in myths like null is safer than hi-sec, go and look at null you ll see that there are less people undocking, and those that do are under the their blobbing umbrellas.
I dont know people who come back (but know several that will leave), but really dont get that argument, why is null pvp now doable and before it wasnt (unless what they wanted was better sitting ducks)? If all those that left and now supposedly come back had actually fought eachother, before leaving, they might not have left…

@Marcus_Luttrell_Khan

CCP is trying to increases losses

@Mark_Marconi

As to CCPs reasons, it seem s fairly clear that they wanted to fix risk vs reward via a method that has been debated for over a decade

Again till CCP says what its purpose was, these arguments are all wishful thinking. For all we know, CCps bill was to high and they reduced their severs to decrease it.
The debate about 'EvE is dieing" is also decades old, maybe its then also clear that CCP wants EvE Dead.

[Arrendis]

@Litsea_Reticulata

They cloaked.

Second-best option.

@Milto_Farroads

If you actually, instead of basing your beliefs in myths like null is safer than hi-sec

Nullsec has long been safer than high-sec. Nullsec operates on standings. If someone doesn’t have them, you know they’re not your friend. Local allowed you, at a glance, to tell if there was anyone worrisome in-system, and to know about them as soon as they came in. In addition, normal intel channels allowed for the tracking of hostile forces’ movements without issue—because of Local.

Compare that to highsec. Can you tell who the gankers are? Can you watch them move through an entire Region and pull your drones to go dock up when they’re still 3 systems away?

Nullsec was absolutely safer than high-sec.

@Milto_Farroads

why is null pvp now doable and before it wasnt (unless what they wanted was better sitting ducks)?

Because perfect intel leads to fewer mistakes. It’s not ‘sitting ducks’ that’s at issue (though of course, some of the targets would fall into that category), it’s also more dangerous for small gangs and roaming fleets. You don’t know what spotters the enemy’s got. You don’t know if there could be bombers in-system. There’s no ability to go ‘ok, local’s clear, no need to take precautions now’.

I know a lot of our junior FCs (and many of our not-so-junior FCs, right up to some of our military directors) who are enjoying roaming a lot more just because they don’t feel like they’re safe doing it. They don’t feel like they’ve got a perfect handle on the situation at all times. It’s more uncertain out there, and more uncertainty makes it interesting.

[Sophia_Mileghere]

But many of them are. And this also includes many Pvp players who consider it the highest art to shoot down a miningship or farming ship. If the miners and farmers go, many Pvp players will go. So in long terms the numbers will decrease.

What’s needed is a good balance, but also a lot of dynamism to keep it interesting.

[Ikki_Phoenix]

I would go for a decrease. But subscriptions is not the only item to look at it in my opinion. With many of us buying packages (3 month, 6 month and such), it is really the plex sales, logins and how many renew after their subscription expires… For example, i have 3 month subscription, but just cancelled my renewal and I specifically wrote on feedback that it was because of blackout

[Sophia_Mileghere]

I know many people who did the same

[Marcus_Luttrell_Khan]

@Milto_Farroads

null is safer than hi-sec

Null WAS safer than highsec. WAS. After the highsec changes, highsec is almost safesec. Null needed more risk, and now you have it.

EVE didn’t used to be so PVE-focused. It used to be all about fun and engaging pvp, with industry to make that possible. Now it’s all about profit margins and isk per hour for people. The hyperinflation of ISK has also slowly been taking people away from the game. I remember when it was 500mil for a month more of play, and now it is nearly 2 bil. Now that CCP is attempting to mitigate the ‘isk-per-hour’ mentality, less people are able to afford it. I do agree with you that THAT is a weakness, especially when they aren’t seeming to work on something that will increase the value of ISK again.

It’s something I’ve contemplated quite a lot, and like I’ve stated in another thread, EVE is at the ‘end-game’ phase in that everyone has access to everything. There was a time when Titans were the gods of space, and now they are also in the ‘already replaced’ category. In that sense, you can argue that the risk to losing big fights has also drastically decreased. It’s a matter of there not being a pre-existing scarcity of resources in the game. If you made things scarce, the miners/PVE people would lose content, but you’d have value in ISK again.

I think this post explains better and in more depth than I wrote shortly here. I welcome your feedback; I’m trying to be constructive, not destructive. I still maintain that the blackout is positive, however I do not discount other arguments.

The Obsolescence of Subcapitals

Alistair, I didn’t really agree with most of the points you made, real-world allegories aside, though to be fair I don’t think you have enough subject matter expertise nor the security clearance to really give an accurate depiction of modern naval combat, but that is beside the point. This statement quoted is absolutely one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever read. I would highly suggest you watch Olmeca Gold’s CSM video. Goonswarm has more manpower and resources than most in-game entities c…

[Bedlicka]

It now plays a few people
it is therefore a big excitement

[leavwiz]

Its been 2 weeks now. PVP crowd is mostly happy, PVE not so much. Small alliances breaking up and moving out or joining mega alliances. A lot happening in NULL. So what does CCP talk about? more skill points to help players catch up with the ones that earned them over the years. New skins, because they apparently add value to your ships.
Isnt it about time CCP said something definitive about what, why and how long will the black out be? Keep it or go back, but say something.

[Mark_Marconi]

I am not surprised the PvE are not happy but then in an area as dangerous Null should be and now is, PvE would really need constant protection or accept the high risk. If they do not have this then maybe they need to look at lo-sec or hi-sec as being the level of risk they wish to take.
The same goes for small alliances, if they cannot protect themselves, they should be looking at lo-sec and hi-sec where it is the level of risk they want.
On the bright side as people get used to the new risk vs reward structure, at least lo-sec should get a lot more action while null will get those who want to take that level of risk.

[leavwiz]

actually, what null gets is perma gate camps, super cap umbrellas , and fewer easy targets. not sure why so many people seem happy about this. gate camping is boring and 30 jump roams to kill an epithal are even more boring. The excitement generated 2 weeks ago is already fading. The comeback players that couldn’t be bothered to log in regularly before are now complaining about the lack of content. They will be gone again soon as the bear targets continue to move on

[Onictus]

@Sana_Yamada

The fact is and I look at this form a military perspective is how in the hell can anyone enter a area , we have radar I thought by this time there would have been something better then having to Mash D scan.

The Broken part from the PVP perspective is cloaked ships are now completely out of control.

welcome to low sec

[Haulie_Berry]

@leavwiz

actually, what null gets is perma gate camps, super cap umbrellas , and fewer easy targets. not sure why so many people seem happy about this.

At a casual glance, this past Saturday was the second deadliest in 2019, with ~29000 kills, after Feb 23 which… I’m not sure what happened that day but it had over 40,000.

[Onictus]

@Mark_Marconi

Yes and the removal of local in Null has been suggested since the very beginning of the game, (Well 2006 at least)

2004 actually, in a dev blog of all things.

[Mark_Marconi]

2006 was my first memory of a long thread on the forums about it.

[Milto_Farroads]

@Arrendis

Nullsec has long been safer than high-sec. Nullsec operates on standings. If someone doesn’t have them, you know they’re not your friend. Local allowed you, at a glance, to tell if there was anyone worrisome in-system, and to know about them as soon as they came in. In addition, normal intel channels allowed for the tracking of hostile forces’ movements without issue—because of Local.

Compare that to highsec. Can you tell who the gankers are? Can you watch them move through an entire Region and pull your drones to go dock up when they’re still 3 systems away?

Nullsec was absolutely safer than high-sec.

First of all, you compare the solo playstyle of hisec with the group playstyle of nullsec. If you actually include in the comparison solo null vs solo hisec, the gneralized statement ‘null is safer’ is wrong.

Sure standings are useful for intel , but they dont protect you from gankers that are blue (or intel spies). Neither is local intel perfect, it depends on available non-AFK people to report the non-blues. In addition, cynos, wormholes and cloacks allow hostiles to move without beeing easily detected.

There are no cynos and no bubbles in highsec, so a ganker cant hotdrop you or gatecamp you easily.
There is an immediate and 100% deadly CONCORD response in highsec, that will safe you from the ganker if he doesnt succed in killing you faster then their response. That makes highsec ‘unsafe’ only situationally that you can mostly avoid if you follow some simple rules. On the contrary in nullsec the response is by players and needs to be organized, allowing the hostile fleet sometimes to kill (not very safe for you) you or to run away.

Certainly big organized entities in high sec could run similar intel tools to make hisec safer, but they dont need to it is already adequately safe.
So sure, local intel allows certain degree of safeness for by avoiding certain activities, but it does not make null safer than hisec.

@Arrendis

It’s more uncertain out there, and more uncertainty makes it interesting

‘interesting’ wears of after a short time

[Xelios]

@Marcus_Luttrell_Khan

Now it’s all about profit margins and isk per hour for people

Because the only meta that matters anymore is putting bodies into capitals. Which means injectors and PLEX. Endless amounts of them.

Finally injected your first titan alt? Awesome! Now you can work on injecting another one because in tidi dual boxing titans is even better. Better inject a FAX too because the alliance needs more FAX to stay relevant.

Finally injected your “endgame” mining capital ship? Awesome! Now you can inject 5 more because multiboxing them is even better.

People are flipping out over these changes because the rest of the game is still geared toward an insane isk grind just to stay relevant. The whole meta needs to change starting with capitals. You should’t need to grind hundreds of millions a day just to play the game “properly”.