Logistics

No ty

Yes, because watching the enemy fleet, your position, anchoring, targets, modules and so on and so forth is so much fun in a laggy tidi fight of, let’s say, 100 vs 100. Not to mention bigger fights. Sounds like a very great idea to ruin fleet fights and return the battles back to 10 vs 10 max, where actual piloting shines without mechanics stunts like your idea.

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Blockquote

You’re right… god forbid fleets use drones in large fights.

Actually yes, god forbid. Drones and fighters are among the worst things that can happen in a fight because they cause lag, low fps and tidi and augment existing tidi. And I sure as hell don’t want even more lag, lower fps and tidi in a fleet fight. This would also make your suggestion all the more worse because it is so much fun watching your modules cycle for 10 minutes or see them ignore clicks/key strokes under tidi.

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I can see that wen’t right over your head, Fly safe man.

My thoughts on logistics here.

Stacking penalties on logi wouldn’t be a bad thing. Don’t like the drones only thing though…

Another one of these eh?

Hmm how to start? Okay, let’s start with this. For armor vs shield, most decent armor tanks require 2 reps to a shield tank’s booster + amp to be near equivalent. Putting any rep on means you are reducing your overall buffer making you more susceptible to the already popular alpha doctrines. Building upon this it also gives your own reps less time to cycle (for armor) and your idea of slow repair drones reaching you in time to boost your local rep to save your bacon. In case you’re curious 1-2 tank slots amounts to a heck of a lot of buffer, depending on what you’re flying you’re can be looking at 30k+ ehp loss for standard mach and scaling down as you go. This is ignoring cap stability which you’re ideas overlook the remote cap transfers. I assume you want that to be solely drones as well, maybe boosting a cap booster effectiveness? You can have your cap, or you can have your boosts, but not both.

Even if you simply made the remote reps apply these bonuses, it doesn’t change the problems pointed at above it just alleviates the horrible idea of having it attached to slow moving drones which could possibly be outran by the people you’re trying to have them help save.

Next problem, and by far the most detrimental to fleet warfare, would spring up by adding a DR to reps at all. That is, you will effectively put an upper bound on how many logi you can even bring to a fleet, which is actually increasing your level of F1 monkeys brought to a fleet. But worse yet, in large brawls you effectively make it worthless to bring logi at all and ultimately reduce all large fights into full dps slug fests and remove any need of tactics outside of bring more bodies. Gone are the tactics of bring picking off the softer logi until you can break the reps on their dps while maintaining a safe distance. Gone are the tactics for logi pilots and fleets coordinating positions to keep a safe distance away. Replaced simply with: bring more dps such that their logi can never save them. Alpha no longer even matters as that is how you get around high number of logistics. Range no longer matters as much since fights have been reduced to slugfests where whoever can apply their damage the fastest and in higher number wins.

So while your ideas may open up more kills for smaller alliances, it actually damns your position of ever standing a chance in a fight as those alliances who could already field more logi than you can just as easily field more ships than you and simply out brawl you 10-1. So while it sounds great, your idea solves nothing and hurts the health and diversity of the entire game in the long run.

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I would really appreciate if you guys would stop trying to nerf ships to fit a meta that doesn’t exist. Logistics would be CRIPPLED if they were capped on their repairs. You want them to be functionally useless, and that’s not a good way of rebalancing anything.

A lot of people, me as a logi pilot included, feel the infinite scalability of logi sucks.

I’d be interested in something where logi has a much shorter range, or depends on the tank of one ship like a fax, or has a limit/stacking penalties.

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Would rather we not?

There was a time when logi kinda sucked. I’m trying to remember what the buffs were to make it matter. I guess the question is if PVP was better when logi sucked, and if so, maybe there’s a middle point.

If I bring 50 basilisks, you have exactly 1 option for fighting me. Alpha fleets. You have to volley ships off before logistics can land reps. Barring that, even a HAW dread fleet (again, assuming you aren’t volleying things before logistics can react) lacks the DPS to actually take a subcap off the grid.

On the flip side, we don’t want to knee-jerk and make logistics useless.

Which is why I want diminishing returns.

Logistics in small-gang remains obscenely powerful, a massive force multiplier. 50% of a ship’s buffer over 10 seconds is a LOT.

In large fights, those 50 basi I mentioned can still rep up 50% of a ship’s buffer, but the diminishing returns kick in and it provides a hard limit for how much repping they can do. Ships will die if they rely solely on logistics in this scenario.

“But wait”, you say, “I don’t want certain death!” Ewar. Right now it’s a gimmick. You have painting and webbing ships to help with your gank, but in a large fight how often are you using ECM and RSD?

EDIT:
I should probably mention that this was in conjunction with a rolling DPS cap as well. In the thread I linked, the fastest any ship would die without logistics support would be 12.5 seconds, even with a fleet of supercarriers attacking a T1 cruiser. By doing this, you completely invalidate the tactic of “just bring enough DPS to melt them first”.

TLDR, a critical mass of logistics necessitates an alpha fleet. By using diminishing returns on logi reps, a good old fashioned brawl becomes an option again.

And replace it with “Bring enough DPS to outlast the enemy” as both side trade certain death numbers?

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If both sides choose to follow the current meta and bring dps/logistics, yes. We’re so heavily set into the current tract of “dps primaries” that it would require players to start working in smaller groups.

Consider though that it’s never that simple. There are a huge number of dynamics involved. DPS Application, mobility, ewar, and logistics.

If there were DPS and logistics impedance of some kind (a DPS cap and Diminishing Logistics) then a fleet wouldn’t benefit from focus fire. It would benefit from applying the “right” amount of damage to as many targets as possible, while logistics would benefit from applying the “right” amount of remote reps to as many of those targets as possible.

Meanwhile, ewar on both sides is trying to interfere with that mixture. Inevitably with the above, logistics is a bandaid - sustained DPS will inevitably win. So when logistics can say “we’re breaking on Pilot1” the ewar FC can divert some form of ewar to reduce/eliminate the incoming damage or peel tackle, allowing Pilot1 to either warp off or not die.

EDIT:
Felt the need to build on this a bit more.
The whole time, ewar would be offensively used to help break logistics and also to help friendly dps application.

This would be impractical when facing large number of enemies. Just a single fleet of 255 splitting in 2 of ~120 and running 2 primary will case the fleet being shot to have so much ■■■■ on comms at he same time it will be un-usable.

No, hell no. ■■■■ no. What the actual ■■■■?! Get out. Just go.

This is game does not even hold a majority for those in small gang warfare. Stop trying to change mechanics to fit your niche! Holy ■■■■■■■ ■■■■ man!

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That’s because people on comms are all in one channel. At least, they are on your comms perhaps.

On our comms, logistics have their own channel, non-logi subcaps have their own channel, caps have their own channel, and supers/titans have their own channel. The FC bluelips out to them from a channel that only the FCs can be in, so that they can discuss among themselves without talking over the usual comms sperg.

Or people could, you know, exercise a little comms discipline and not sperg up comms?

I would assume that you would be saying this as a bad thing - and I agree. F1 monkeys are retarded and need to die in a fire.

And yet you seem to prefer the current alpha fleet mechanics (the epitome of F1 monkey mechanics) over something that would literally force players to start using their brains a bit.

This does not make sense, try again?

Oh. Sorry. I thought this was the Player Features and Ideas thread, where such changes were intended to go. My mistake, I’ll keep looking for the right thread… oh wait…

Changes to improve the game yes. But you’re so short sighted that you cant see how this change would effect many different facets outside of your own.

The number of players solely interested in small gang warfare are in the minority. Look at the bigger picture please.

I prefer the divergent strategies that appear over time to combat the old metas. Alpha doctrines are a counter to logistics. Bombs are a counter to most alpha doctrines. Jackdaws/fast tackle/command dessies are an attempt to counter to bombs. I’ve been playing this game long enough that this whole thing is a large came of cat and mouse and will come full circle again. You don’t need to make drastic changes to induce change when they already occur naturally in game. I’m guessing your either too new or too absorbed in your sphere to notice that fact.

I’m in TEST, even with different channels it can be autistic as all hell. This just tells us that smaller groups are typically more disciplined which is already known since you have far more control over who you fly with. Regardless, I fail to see how this has anything to do with why your idea a good one and will improve the health of the game.

Your segregated channel will be dead when people HAVE to talk to each other to make your grand scenario possible. Logi need to talk to everyone to tell them when reps are about o fail. Everyone need to talk to defensive support to tell them who is yellow/red boxing them to try to relieve some pressure. The FC has to talk to DPS and offensive support for target calling. All those people now NEED to share channel or talk in global for those order/request because their own group aren’t the one needing the info to be effective.