Not true. Try cloaking on a gate with 20+ dudes and a number of them in interceptors, and if in NS interdictors.
Now, if I am at a safe, cloaked then yeah…I’m pretty damn safe…but then so are you. I cannot retain that safety and be an actual threat. To be an actual threat I have to decloak…at which point you can can shoot me too.
This is the actual problem. That there is an ATK player there, who has buddies–i.e. they took the time to organize and prepare (they are on comms, they have specific ships suitable for their task, etc.) vs. the guy who has not only not done any of that, but sits here and insists that he should not have to do that so that he can rat in safety.
I’ll give @Mike_Voidstar credit, he at least ditched the AFK part and decided he had to go after cloaking in general. He is still wrong though in that cloaking ships are not WTFOMs nor are they an “I win module”. For certain trade offs the players get some advantages. In HS, if you know what you are doing and have taken necessary precautions you should be able to move around in considerable safety with high value cargo…once you have taken the necessary precautions.
In short, when players make an effort to be safer they are…gasp safer.
Seriously, if I am sitting at a safe and cloaked lets just conclude that yeah, I’m pretty much 100%…but what can I do to you while maintaining that safety? Nothing.
The issue has always been the fact that the unlimited safety comes for an effectively unlimited time at no real cost.
The nature of cloaking mitigates the potential costs of it to the point that it’s not an issue, yet imposes significant costs on those being hunted regardless of any other actions the cloaker takes.
That is what makes it an “I Win” button. You cost your enemy significantly while suffering nothing yourself. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about that even if he never uncloaks or causes any further losses through direct combat. The Opportunity Cost argument is a joke in poor taste.
No, cloaks aren’t WTFOM mobiles, but they don’t have to be. Their power lies in other areas and is absolute.
Cloaking is NOT the problem. The problem is using the inability of other players to know whether the cloaker is actually playing the game to force them to make one of three decisions, all of which the cloaker benefits from, none of which require any real input or risk. It’s the PVP equivalent of being able to afk rat, except at least the afk ratter still has the risk of other players. The problem is the ability to gain an advantage over other players with zero risk while not even siting at the keyboard.
This is literally the ONLY place in the entire game now where you can, as the aggressor, be 100% invulnerable, and even docking up (the only other situation remotely similar to this now) is not only slowly being addressed with citadels but also didn’t even carry the advantages afk cloaking does. Docking up is a reaction, it allows you to be safe (I completely agree with getting rid of that invulnerability, and CCP is). afk cloaking is actively playing the game without having to actively play the game, it allows you to force other players to take actions without being at the computer and without the ability of those players to counter your actions in any way. You hold all the cards, either you win, you win, or you win, and it all happens on your terms. There is not a single other mechanic in the game that allows anything like this, and all that come even close are view as issues that need to be addressed.
Once you get a toon into a system there are three option; residents dock up -win, residents pack up and move to a different system -win (plus you can easily follow them -double win), residents ignore you; you randomly check for ratters until you get a juicy target and hot drop them -jackpot.
Not that it maters, CCP Falcon has made it very clear CCP’s official stance is basically [shut up, there isn’t a problem here]. Real surprising why they seem to have stopped making plans for the game beyond ~1 year and are hemorrhaging players.
The dozens and dozens of posts on the forums to the contrary say that AFK is the issue.
Aside from the opportunity cost you might have a point here.
Considering the opportunity cost players incur to AFK cloak, this isn’t really a problem. I have 3 accounts and I could AFK cloak with all three. Problem is that then I’d lose out on quite a bit of ISK as I wouldn’t be able to use those alts for making said ISK.
You don’t understand opportunity cost do you. We covered this at length on the previous version of the forums.
Except it isn’t, save in one instance where it also renders you absolutely impervious to them as well.
Please describe this benefit? Is it ISK? No. Is it minerals? No. Is it in game items like modules or the like? No. Loyalty points? No. Standings? No.
All an AFK cloaker get is knowing he has caused you to generate some salt and possibly he might induce a player into undocking and ratting and become vulnerable to attack when the player is ATK.
You cannot aggress while cloaked. All a cloaker can do while the player is AFK is scare you via local…cause you some psychological fear so that you won’t undock and move over one system. Or undock with some other players and use that system. The problem is actually…yours. If you are so afraid of an empty chair and a face in local…maybe you need to look for another home in New Eden.
Yes, lets skip over the costs and risks of actually getting the character in position. Typical Bravo Sierra from the anti-cloaking crowd. BTW, we beat this one to death with @Mike_Voidstar and others probably about 2 years ago.
How can an AFK pilot follow you to another system? How can an AFK player do anything to you like hot drop them?
And why can’t you get into a standing fleet, rat in more PvP oritented ships, even rat in a group? 5 Ishtars ratting in a group are not such an easy target to hot drop. Can’t you get on voice comms?
CCP’s stance is the same it has always been. AFK ships doing amazingly little DPS. Cloaked ships do amazingly little DPS. When a ship is not cloaked it can be locked and shot.
Again, here is what I am seeing:
I should be able to rat with safety.
I should not have to work for that safety.
I want to nerf those who are preventing 1 and making me have to expend effort.
I have been in NS for a long time, and none of the corporations or alliances I have been in (granted not that many) have complained about AFK cloaking.
And I doubt the player retention problem is related to AFK cloaking. That claim has been made ever since covert ops cloaks have been in game…for at least 10 years.
So there I was going to move an alt into a system to AFK cloak. But some mean players blew up my ship as it jumped into the next system! It is so unfair that I had already gone 23 jumps only to be sent back to start all over.
I demand CCP fix this immediately! My effort should not be so easily thwarted by mean and unpleasant players. This is an outrage!
Fine with me. I think the Observatory Array might be an interesting way for players to interact is some way with people cloaked in a safe spot. It comes with costs and vulnerabilities for the uncloaker and paired with some other changes to say local, might be an interesting way to add game play to the game and achieve your goals.
However just nerfing cloaks would have little effect in Empire space where AFK cloaking isn’t a thing and there are stations everywhere, a significant negative impact in wormholes where cloaking is life, while making nullsec almost perfectly safe. I think you need to think beyond your narrow-minded focus on Empire space and think of the larger game, and perhaps come up with a better idea to add game play than just nerfing such a key tool for finding content, for both hunter and prey alike.
So long as the Observatory Arrays are not limited to outside HIghsec, and do achieve ability to interact with cloakers.
I also do not think the things being discussed are nerfs to cloaking, and yes AFK or not, the same issue’s present themselves to the defenders in highsec as in nullsec.
I know i have used the same tactics during wars, and to set up ganks, or just be obviously PITA to someone that knows im just camping the system in hopes of a gank forcing them to stay docked or log off.
Sorry Teckos, but you’re plain wrong here - 100mn ratting VNI will apply its full dps to anything that aggresses it, regardless of whether the VNI pliot is ATK and on comms or in their kitchen eating a sandwich.
Because the conversation about AFK VNIs would be supported by CCP and they would agree that playing the game without playing the game is not the intention of EVE (except for AFK cloaking of course…) and would accept that they need to nerf the ability for VNIs to afk rat, which I would guess they already are
Considering people can “playe the game” while not even logged in…not sure why people are upset about “playing the game while logged in but AFK”.
Look, I’m not a fan of AFK cloaking. I think it is sub-optimal if balanced game play. I’m hoping the OA (Observatory Array) will help with this issue while creating some new avenues of content…and hopefully not boring sub-optimal content.
I haven’t followed this thread for a while so forgive me if someone has already had this idea.
How about people only show up in local if they use a stargate. It’s this sytem that logs the comings and goings of ships, how exactly would they be able to log a ship entering system from a WH for instance?
This would open up opportunities for smaller raiding parties and expand the role of combat recons. It would also take away some of the safety of local, but without completely neutering it.
there is no other mechanic in the game that lets you become untouchable while continuing to affect other players. Docking was the closest thing but CCP is just about done addressing that (destructible stations). According to CCP Falcon, CCP has no interest in addressing AFK cloaking and anyone that thinks it’s a problem (significant number of people based on the number of post and threads about the topic over the last several years) needs to [shut up and sit down because… it’s not a problem so shut up], going so far as threatening to close the thread that people are supposed to voice their opinion on the subject in.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything because of cloakers.
Example: I logged in a while ago, I was in Syndicate space but I wanted to head to Solitude space somewhere. I did 15 jumps. At each of those jumps were multiple people from various alliances that could have splodied me when I came out of a gate.
I accept that.
I was lucky that people were gracious enough not to tag me, so I finally got to me edge of the universe area and moved on. I cloaked up for a few minutes, then started orbiting a few structures to see what’s up. Eventually I had to head out for the night so I logged. Note that you cannot, repeat cannot safe log while cloaked. So I logged out and who knows, I might be out a ship tomorrow or Thursday night when I log back in.
This simply is not a problem. I’ll die eventually when I become careless or get baited, then I’ll have to re-ship up. In the meantime I’m still doing marketing and increasing my ISK count and no one is getting harassed so…we both win?
Actually you are letting them affect you. A cloaked player cannot target you let alone shoot your or light a cyno.
Oh please. For this you need an entire fleet and even with asset protection you don’t lose much. And it takes days. This is just ridiculous. Can you try reaching even more?
First off, people complaining on the forums is not a random sample of players so it is a logical fallacy to say it is lots of people based on numbers posting on the forums. There is a huge selection bias.
Second, CCP Falcon made is quite clear he was referring to the personal attacks and rule breaking. If you have an idea, post it. But if it is merely a nerf to cloaks don’t expect it to be well received except by folks who tend to think like you.
And cloaked ships are vulnerable near structures so this makes gates a natural place to try and catch them. Also, try putting some cans out and even bubbles, not all cloaking ships are interdiction nullified. Cloaking ships are also vulnerable when they attack. The cloaking ship depends on surprise and taking advantage of an opponents weaknesses, but are themselves rather squishy. So if you play smart you can try to use that to your advantage too.
Their presence is a real potential threat, and while I suppose you don’t have to take it into account in making decisions, not doing so is so fundamentally unwise that your ship should probably just automatically explode upon undock if you don’t.
You may find it reaching to consider someone docked as being under some kind of threat in a destructible station, but then how much more reaching is it to think that someone under a cloak is risking anything when even the dangers associated with being in a destructible station are non-issues? Or are dangers that don’t concern you always dismissed out of hand like that?
It’s not a logical fallacy to say that ‘lots of people’ complain about folks based off the number who voluntarily come to the forums to complain about it. While there is selection bias, it does not diminish the number of players who do volunteer to do so in any way. No other comparison is being made, as if for instance the statement is lots more people complain about cloaks than war decs or something. Even at that, everyone on the forums volunteered to come here for whatever reason, so it could be considered a significant issue by the volume of people who come here for this over other topics. It’s been one of the most oft repeated topics for going on a decade, to the extend of creating this thread with some significant portion of mod time devoted to locking all others on the subject and redirecting them here—at least on the last forums.
Your suggestions on how to catch cloaking ships only work on stupid pilots, and only at the pilots own volition. That’s been the core of the problem forever.
Nobody said you shouldn’t take such ships into account when making decisions. What should be taken into account are the actual capabilities of these ships and how you can neutralize those capabilities. You do not need a hard counter. And asking for these ships to be neutralized by the Devs is just flat out wrong.
It is a logical fallacy for the same reason that reading newspapers leaves one mis-informated. By definition only news worthy articles/stories make it into newspapers and as such they are not the norm. A story “Dog does not bite man” is never going to make it into the newspaper. There are thousands, maybe even millions of those stories. “Dog bites man” does make it in, and it thus is not really helpful as it is not the full story.
Your response should have been, just because it is a logical fallacy does not make it wrong. Most players my dislike cloaks, but using whines on the forums is not a good measure. Go take a poll, or beg CCP to do it.
To get into that system you are in they had to take some gates. Maybe you should consider that effort thing you whine about. Maybe you aren’t expending enough.
I never said that i was an epic struggle and of course the cloak makes it easier that is why people use them.
But you have brought up effort before, but you seem to think that that effort is not continuous. If you aren’t going to take steps to secure your space, even against an opponent using asymmetrical warfare then you don’t deserve that space.
This is why having good TZ coverage is good. Also, even if he does get in, take the effort to neutralize that threat. If you can’t do it directly, then do it indirectly. This is asymmetrical warfare. On one side you have an alliance that has enough power to take and hold space. On the other hand you have a group with vastly less power–i.e. they are not a significant threat to your space. But somehow they bring you to your knees?
On the old forums there was once a post by Vic Jefferson. He wanted anomalies to work kind of like cyno jammers. Ahhh here it is.
Here is the first post.
As title suggests, which means you can still covert cyno. Pirate
With perfect, 100% reliable and instant intel, the recent nerfing of null-null wormholes, mobile depots to instantly refit, and the proliferation of ratting capitals, null is comparatively risk free compared to the rewards. Rating capitals are simply not vulnerable enough given the difficulties of projecting your own capitals into null, and given the ability to cyno in a response fleet.
You’d think after a while, other pirate factions would learn this trick from the Sansha.
Baltec1 had the best response, 1 line at that,
He likely went roaming in Dek and ended up with 3 titans, 7 supers and a gaggle of carriers dumped on his head.
Why is it that Goons seem to know how to deal with this problem?
