Why would you need it in wormholes? That’s an entirely different space than Eve.
Except your ‘solutions’ all have downsides that have been discussed over and over. You don’t have a problem with the phrase ‘large scale bombs that can be fit on most ships’? You know mines were removed from the game due to heavy abuse? Make the cloak use cap? Great, cloaky hunters are already half capped out when they want to engage. Fuel bays? That mans changes on any ship that wants to use a cloak. Fatigue? That hits active cloaked players.
The key thing here is that no matter how ‘different’ you believe WH space to be, or how odd you think the inhabitants are (admittedly true) cloaks are not a problem there. There is no cloaky camping, there is no fear of cloaky camping, we do not care because we plan for the potential threat.
TL:DR Cloaks are not the problem.
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SIghs
I don’t believe I’ve ever said anything along those lines. An AFK timer that logs you out after a certain amount of time does absolutely nothing to people who are active. Only those who are not at their keyboard.
Do you plan for drops?
Can you tell me how you deal with a drop on you ratting ships without local telling you a potential dropper is in system?
Oh wait… drops don’t exist in wormholes.
Cloak timers, fuel, cap drain, etc. all nerf active cloakers. They are nerfs to cloaks, not AFK cloaking. Special probes, decloaking POS modules, special ships for finding cloakers, are all nerfs to cloaks, not AFK cloaking. There has not been a single nerf to AFK cloaking that does not nerf cloaks in general and thus nerf active cloaking.
I will give @Mike_Voidstar credit, he at least recognized this and shifted his argument from AFK cloaking to cloaks in general. While I disagree with it and most of his arguments, he at least isn’t being deliberately obtuse on that point.
Pretty sure @Corraidhin_Farsaidh is a wormholer, as such he always expects a drop.
If he lives in wormholes, he does not rely on local.
Actually they do. You just signaled a degree of ignorance. Don’t feel bad I used to write stuff like that too. Then a wormholer pointed out that unless you are scanning all the time, when a new connection opens up it is really not unlike a covert cyno and a bunch of stuff can come in when you least expect it.
Now all that being said, I am still not an advocate of simply removing local.
The lack of AFK camping does not mean cloaks are not a problem.
In fact, their ubiquitous use in WH speaks volumes to exactly how poorly they are balanced.
Cloaks should not dictate everything else about the game, yet the only place they don’t have that effect is in high sec where they generally don’t have the DPS to get the job done before Concord shows up.
ANYTHING that requires a cloak to get done deserves to face opposition in getting it done. If it would ruin WH’s to ‘break’ cloaking, then that’s a problem that needs addressed on it’s own, regardless of what’s happening in Null. If it ruins scouting, then that’s a problem that needs addressing regardless of what’s going on with your hated PVE guys. If it makes it impossible to manage your unsupported capitals as was claimed by one of the pro-cloak crowd… then that’s an issue separate from afk camping that needs addressed.
Cloaks should give an edge in evasion, not be your one stop shop to completely alter everything connected to them.
Yet nobody complains about them in wormholes…ever. I would suggest this indicates they are balanced.
What does that even mean, “dictate everything else in game”. I can tell you this, if I were not in GSF and I parked an AFK cloaky camper in 1DQ do you know what would happen? Nothing. Not a damn thing. Fleets would still form, leave and come back. People would move stuff in and out as it is a fairly major trade hub (especially for NS). Wait, I take that back…my alt’s name would pop up periodically on the intel channels. There you go something did happen…something that really would have almost no effect on what Goons are going.
Aside from sitting at a safe spot this is actually the case. Cloaked ships die all the time. See. And see these too. And these.
Well since it is patently obvious that cloaking ships are not invincible there is no need to do this. Your premise is faulty, therefore you conclusions are dubious.
Yes, because every battle has been one by the side that brings the most cloaked ships. 
Seriously though, cloaked ships to give an advantage, but they are not unstoppable and good piloting and team work can make traversing hostile space difficult and even outright dangerous.
The problem with all of these nerfs is that they are mechanical–i.e. they are designed so that they can implemented without good piloting and/or team work. One doofus with a “POS decloaking” module can do the work of several people currently and with minimal effort and only a fixed cost. This is basically asking CCP to do your work. Periodically we’ll hear the “One guy in a cloaked ship thwarts the effort of an entire alliance that is necessary to secure NS sov space.” But that is kind of what the person making that argument is asking for. That one person can do what should take several people. Yes, a single cloaked ship may require 5, 10 or more guys to catch or make moving around problematic at a gate. But we are talking asymmetric warfare. A cloaked ship is designed to go into hostile territory where the defenders generally have the advantage. They have the advantage in numbers. They have the advantage in infrastructure (POS, citadels, jump bridges and outposts). And thanks to local they have the advantage of an intel network too. And in comes a guy in a squishy ship. Yeah, he might have a covert cyno and 10 or even 20 dudes also in squishy ships…that fit cloaks too. The point is that they are squishy and not very roboust ships. These are not an invasion force. This is a harassment force. They are designed to make life in NS a bit more dangerous. And guess what, they do. Working as intended.
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If it were possible to hunt down a cloaker with several people working together, I would agree with you. But it’s not.
I’m fine with it being a group effort so Johnny Miner has to get some friends to clean space. I’m not fine with a magic module that pollutes space with unwanted pilots who remain immune for all time until they choose otherwise. Non-Consent should be working both ways, not the onesided garbage we have now.
If the Lack of complaints from Wormholers indicates no problem, then Logically the unending deluge of complaints from Null should indicate a serious problem—yet we hear all the time that there is no problem there either. Seems like the volume of complaints has little to do with the existence of a problem.
Sure it is. You go to the gate. Put up bubbles, drop cans, have interceptors zipping around. This is how those cloaked ships die.
The only way to prevent this is to sit at a safe and do…nothing.
A player at a safe doing nothing is not really a threat. If you have had bad luck or are bad and that guy gets into system and too a safe and you cannot find him…then prepare accordingly. Form a fleet, change up your ratting ships, get on comms, if people have alts, log them in. If you have a citadel, have those alts in response ships sitting tethered on the citadel.
Yes, this is one sided. But guess what…that is what asymmetric warfare is like. Working as intended.
But most NS players don’t complain. Assuming what we see on the forums is some how representative of all of NS is not reasonable. You never ever see this discussion on the Goon forums. And if somebody did post this, they’d be laughed at and made fun of. When I was in EXE nobody complained about cloaked ships. I have yet to see a PL guy, and NC. guy or the like complain. It is usually people who want easier farming who complain.
So the people who play the game just like you get to dictate when there is and isn’t a problem. Got it.
Also, you guys are the only ones who should be able to have the unbreakable hold on asymmetric warfare. Interesting.
Well, it has been dictated to us by our betters, all the carebears should just line up to be shot, and like it.
Cloaks are not the problem, and in WH’s we use a variety of vessels, cloaked and otherwise. Our ratting and mining ships don’t use cloaks since we have better uses for those slots. Haulers may or may not have cloaks but we tend to use scouts to mitigate risk instead.
if a cloaky shipy initiating a drop with a cyno is an issue then this is not because of the cloak, this is because the cloak can be used in conjunction with a cyno.
The simple fact of everyday WH life shows that cloaks are not a problem. Guess what happens when we get a Wingspan pilot of questionable parentage camping our system? We fleet up, we bait, we flush them out, we manage WH’s (just as you can manage gates).
Some of the most entertaining times come from hunting folks like Wingspan once they are in the system. It’s part of the game. Because you perceive cloaks to be the problem does not mean it is actually the problem. Many PvP players perceive local as a problem as it is perfect intel, yet you are fine with that.
Cloaks work fine and give options, if the combination of cloaks with cynos is such an issue then perhaps you should not be able to mount the two together.
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What do you expect? This is an MMO where player interaction is the intent of the developers. That interaction can be cooperative or non-cooperative. And in NS it is definitely both. What you are saying in this thread is, to a large extent, I don’t want to cooperate and I don’t want the non-cooperative either. Goons defend their space. Send in a roam, they respond. Send in cloakers they set up standing fleets complete with response ships sitting on citadels and such. They get on comms. They talk to each other. They work together.
Now if you do not want to play this way…fine. But it means you will have a harder time of it. You will be more vulnerable to things like cloaked ships and roams. Either accept it…or don’t and move on.
Your actions have consequences in the game. Deal with it and don’t ask CCP to change things because of the decisions you’ve made are not working out like you would have liked because of other players.
WTF? You want to have asymmetrical warfare in what…a rorqual? A ratting kronos? Get into a cloaking ship and go be a bane to your enemies. Go out and “To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And hear the lamentations of their women.”
No. You should mitigate your risk. You should do whatever you can to PvE and not get shot. But PvE is an activity that produces rewards and as such it comes with risk from other players. You can totally maximin the running any and all sites in the game. It is other players who present the actual risks. This is a good thing for this game. In fact, that was the basic intent all along. Notice that PvP does not produce much rewards unless the target was taking an excessive risk (moving high value cargo, for example). I was talking to some pirates living in Rancer. Sure they got some nice loot drops…from players moving crazy stuff, like fully researched capital BPOs in a freaking shuttle! Through Rancer! Years ago a guy was moving some stuff for a friend, but he got lazy and decided to go through Rancer. As he was telling us about it when he said, “Well I was going through Rancer…” and we all groaned and said, “Really dude? Rancer and you are shocked you died?! Really?”
Umm…you cannot jump to a cyno in a wormhole. Unless you are using a different definition of “drop”… that means no drops in wormholes.
The fact is a ship in NS can uncloak off your ratting carrier and open a cyno… and in seconds you’re blobbed by 10 supers.
D-scan doesn’t help with that. Only local lets you someone is in system who might be able to drop on you.
In a wormhole… that ship can still sneak up on you cloaked. But it can’t cyno in a super fleet… a carrier fleet… or any fleet. All of the ships have to be individually cloaked to sneak up on you. I am aware that happens… but it severely limits what you might face. Yes, you’re three corpmates and yourself in carriers could be ambushed by a group of bombers or black ops ships… but it would take a pretty large group to threaten you while still pulling off an ambush.
Anything other than covert capable ships show up on d-scan coming in. In Null without local a cyno can be launched from a covert ops capable ship… and your only warning is the few seconds after the ship uncloaks and the cyno goes up. After that… boom… you’re blobbed.
I’ll roll with whatever CCP does. But cynos… and how cloaked ships with no local combined with cynos would work… has to be factored in any decision about local in null sec space. It’s simply NOT the same as wormholes.
Since @Lena_Crews W-space knowledge is limited, let me enlighten you on how a drop works in Anoikis:
A scout (covops frigate or tech 3 -cruiser with a cloak usually) jumps into a wormhole and starts looking through the system with D-scan. When he finds a target, he lets the rest of the fleet know, so they can be ready. Once the scout is ready to attack the target, the rest of the fleet jumps into the system and hold their cloak, until the target is scrambled. The rest of the fleet jumps to the scout and start taking it apart.
While we may not have cynos, we most definitely have what could be seen as a drop. The target gets even less warning than in nullsec as there is no local giving the scout away.
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And even if uncloaked ships are used you just keep them on the other side of the WH and use a heavy tackle to last long enough for the cavalry to arrive. The same applies on other WH’s for a counter drop if the target is actually bait.
I do like WH’s 
Personal favourite are warp speed -rigged dictors and a good warp in.
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What you are describing is a normal fleet in null. A single scout leading the way while the regular fleet is
one to several jumps behind. It’s pretty common and it’s not a drop. It’s just scouting/tackle for a fleet. The limitation is you have to essentially follow your scout… just like you would in a wormhole.
With a cyno capable fleet, it works differently. There are multiple scouts looking for targets and the main fleet is stationary. The scouts are scouring systems within the jump range of the fleet. When any scout finds a target, scrams and lights cyno… the whole fleet (which are not cloak capable unless it’s a covert drop) all jump in at once. They destroy the ratting carrier, loot it and then (jump fatigue permitting) jump back out again before reinforcements can arrive.
You cannot trap them in the system by guarding gates or wormholes… because cyno.
In your carrier ratting… or even better your group of 3-4 ratting together… you are going to see any non-covert ops capable enemy coming on d-scan (asside from force recon I guess). While you can still be outnumbered… you aren’t going to see a prospect uncloak who then cynos in a titan with dread support. The titan can’t come in at all and the dreads you’ll see coming. You have a chance to kill the tackle and escape before they arrive.
The impact of removing local from null would essentially to turn every fleet in null into the equivalent of a covert ops cloaked fleet in a wormhole… where instead a bunch of bombers uncloaking in range… you have the equivalent of a bunch of battleships… or capitals… or supers.
Imagine… the ability to effectively pipebomb opposing fleets while they’re stationary without any chance of avoiding it.
Neut uncloaks on grid… “Oh crap kill it!”
Cyno goes up… “Crap! Warp out, warp out, warp out!”
50 smartbombing machs land… and you’re in station.
Cyno + cloak + no local = OP.
Combining Cynos with cloaks is a powerful thing. Not really overpowered aside from not having any chance of stopping the cloaker from getting into position to light the thing in the first place, or any sort of onus on the cloak pilot to get in and get it done before being challenged in any way.
But regardless, it’s still the cloak that’s the issue.
Got someone in that WH scouting your fleet to ‘drop’ his allies on you? Sure, you have developed a culture of living that way, but you should still have some sort of counterplay opportunity to keep him from gathering that intel for his buddies in the first place. The one sided nature of cloaks is counter to every other aspect of EVE.