OK, I’ll choose. An AFK cloaky camper cannot do anything to you/your ship directly. (I.E.: They cannot target you, loose drones on you, scram you, light a cyno on top of your head, call you chicken in Local)
They can’t even keep you from undocking. And before you or anyone else tells me they can keep you from undocking, I need you to really, really think about WHO/WHAT is keeping you from undocking. Because I believe if you hit the “Undock” button while an AFK cloaky camper is in the system the cloaky camper CAN’T keep you from undocking.
To paraphrase Smoky the Carebear, “Only YOU can prevent your ship from undocking”
(sigh) Its hard to know if you just think you can one over on people like this or what. Yes, people can click undock any time and with zero forethought or security. And they can lose so many ships to enemies they thought were AFK but werent that they can be reduced to flying corvettes. Yes, they can. But of course, they won’t. You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. Its obvious.
I am not even in a situation where POSSIBLY AFK cloaky campers are a problem and yet, I can imagine the difficulties just fine. Not sure what your issue is but it might be contrarianism.
But yes, you are free to insist that all the complaints about AFK cloaky camping were based on nothing whatsoever and people are just typing to hear their keyboards make sounds. But, I know you know better than that, and so do you.
Once again I point to time and change. We would not be having this discussion if AFK cloaky campers were always and forever in that state. But they aren’t. They become vMAK uncloaked attackers in mere seconds at their whim and leisure. Non-com vessels have no counter to that except to stay docked.
And once again before anyone gets confused, its not so much that I want a change, but failure to admit the facts about the power of AFK cloaky camping is, well, indicative of several things that are not flattering at all.
This is the heart of the argument: one side says there are no counters (and thus they have to stay docked), the other consistently provides advice on how to counter the sudden arrival of an enemy.
It is factually incorrect to say an AFK cloaker returning to their keyboard cannot be countered. It is entirely possible that a null resident chooses to not make the effort to counter this scenario, but that doesn’t make it impossible, or even difficult, to handle the scenario successfully.
I was fighting semantics with semantics on that one. Trying to explain that the AFK cloaky is doing nothing. If they are AFK they can do nothing physical to another player. The pilot choosing not to undock is the one “doing something”.
I never claimed anything like that. I would say most of the complaints are based on the uncertainty which cloaking brings to the game, and the aversion to the perceived risk.
So why bring up the first part?
So is it not knowing what’s there or not knowing if someone is there that’s the problem? From your previous answers, I’d say its the latter. I don’t see “not knowing” as cheesy gameplay. If it is then CCP needs to do away with wormholes. Whole lotta “not knowing” going on there.
Uncertainty is part of Eve. A big part. I’ve not seen a good argument against someone sitting cloaked in a system for hours on end. Give me a reasoned argument of why it is bad, and why it should be changed and I’ll be happy to debate it. Calling it cheesy or unfair is not a reasoned argument.
AFK cloaky camping is bad for these reasons:
1.)
2.)
3.)
…
I’m assuming you mean non-combat vessels? They can counter with intel channels, protective fleets, shield/armor modules, etc. The same counters which have been posted here over and over. Not always easy counters, but counters nonetheless. And yes, not undocking is a counter.
You don’t have to have any skin in the game to put forth ideas, but you should be able to debate them. Otherwise what’s the point?
And failure to admit that there are already counters to AFK cloaking…
Of course the person can come back to the keyboard. But that is not the issue is it? Not really. The problem is that you don’t know and can’t be bothered to find out if they are AFK or likely AFK. I have pointed out that zkill gives you a good idea of when a player is active and inactive.
If they are cloaked, no they can’t. Once they decloak, then they can try.
Just because an AFK cloaker is in system doesn’t mean he is a threat. Look at this activity heat map for JTAC008, you can find him on zkill.
If I undock at 0400 hours EVE time…what is the likelihood he is actually ATK? It is probably pretty low. He maybe at work or sleeping. In fact, looking at the day of the week is helpful too. I could compile the similar heat maps from all 10 of his alts.
But the point remains, there are times when he is less likely to be ATK and more likely to be ATK. Given this information if you are too worried about a possible loss for merely undocking (you are invulnerable for a short period after undocking, and you can always turn on certain modules to tether up)…you may have in issue with uncertainty and loss aversion. This is where quip about Schrödinger’s cloaker came from. The typical complaint is that he is influencing you when AFK, but you play as if he is always ATK. The comment while a bit sarcastic is totally legitimate. You exemplify this problem perfectly.
I have undocked with cloakers in system. I have warped to gates and ansiblex with loads of stuff in my cargo hold. Granted I often use a crane so I use his primary tool against him on just the off chance he is ATK. I have even mined and ratted in systems with AFK cloakers after looking at zkill.
So you admit you are talking about this issue based on ignorance and your imagination. And when people who actually deal with the issue show up and say, “Hey it isn’t that big a deal,” you become insulting and indignant. Is that a fair assessment? Seems fair to me. I don’t freak out about AFK cloakers and I live in NS, I often do stuff in systems with AFK cloakers…and yet I am wrong because…? I don’t agree with your imagined problems?
Right. Rat in a group. Yeah it is less efficient, but there is safety in numbers. Look at the freaking heat maps on zkill. Those can give you a good idea if the guy is AFK or not. Moving over a system can help if that system is empty. Rat/mine in the big toys if your group has a cap/super cap umbrella. Get on comms, in fleet and have your e-cyno handy. I am sure there are other things one could try that I am not thinking about.
I don’t have any problems with the AFK part of this thread I have problems with 0 counter play, cloaking ships tends to be the apex predators as they choose where and when pvp takes place, and there really isn’t much you can do as most of the targets they pick aren’t meant for the actual pvp content, active players shouldn’t have to be stymied by someone who isn’t willing to actively involved in in gameplay. Because null-sec isn’t like wormhole you cannot black ops in a kill squad in ws you don’t have to worry about roaming gangs gating in. Problem is people think ws is the same thing as null-sec, just because they have the same ship usage, but wormholes are much safer as you’re not going to have capital ship or black ops cyno dropping in.
Everyone who is initiating PVP chooses when & where PVP takes place. And I will agree with @Teckos_Pech that cloaking ships are not the apex predators, though they can be dangerous. But other than the stealth bombers they all have a 5 second targeting delay. So decloak, wait 5 seconds and then begin targeting. The counter for that is be aware and ready to GTFO.
One could argue that all ships that undock in New Eden are meant for PVP content.
And I hunt explorers while exploring because they usually don’t shoot back and they drop good loot sometimes.
You’ll just get jumped by a gang of Lokis that you never knew were there, because there is no Local
At least in null you can see the name of the pilot and look up the ships they fly on Zkill. And if they fit cynos you may want to stay docked up or head to another system.
You think that getting some kind of result in the game ( either salt, lowering ADM, decreasing the income of a group, etc ) while being at work or sleeping is acceptable?
Dude, afk drone ratters at least have to pay some attention once very 30 min or so, but your thing is the abosulte uber-AFK gameplay.
I´m not scared, this thing hardly affects me ( I have seen people quite scared tho ) But I think the AFK gameplay is bad for the game. Theres too many people getting things from the game while not playing it with a set of multiboxed accounts, while they do their thing with their main.
Of course, How can they follow if they are not in there keyboards and mouse. And if they are following you, local is there, except if you live in wormholes.
I am not the only person saying some of the things I am saying. I am informed by the words of others and plenty of other experience in EVE, such as causing panic in a null sec system when I did not even have the luxury of an AFK cloak.
Mostly its been false accusations annoying me, such as YOURS just now.
Not remotely.
Because you presume your situation and sentiments mirror those of others or should or is close enough. YOU are not a fair metric nor even an elected representative.
can prevent your ship from undocking”
And if they are following you, local is there, except if you live in wormholes.