Have you heard of a logoff trap?
They work. And they take longer than returning from an AFK flag.
And they ARE coming back. They’re back for 5 seconds and see what’s on there screen. They see that juicy bait staring them in the face. They see the smack talk in local. They may choose to ignore it… but they see it.
And quite frankly 95% of the AFK campers won’t do what you describe. There are much more likely things a semi-afk person will do instead… because camping is so mind numbingly boring that it’s not worth even that level of investment… especially for those 20+ account system campers.
EVE is a MMO. A multi-PLAYER game. This isn’t me saying that… it’s on the webpage. “EVE Online is a vast, community-driven space MMO.” Massively Multiplayer Online game.
That requires players… and the players to be online. It’s not a massively multi-account AFK game. Defining an empty chair as a “player” is hard for me to grasp.
They really don’t work, except against the absolute stupidest players. It’s trivially easy to defeat a logon trap that doesn’t have a logged-in scout supporting it. Move 100km from your previous position and you are 100% safe. The player reappears in a spot that is nowhere near tackle range of your new position, and you warp out before they can close the gap. And that’s on the very generous assumption that you go right back to farming the same PvE site and are still doing it when they log in again. If you move to a new site there is zero chance of the trap succeeding.
The same thing would happen with AFK flags. The farmer waits for the AFK flag to appear, then warps back to their site at a new location or to a new site. The time between the AFK flag disappearing and the formerly-AFK threat reaching tackle range and getting a point on the farmer is now far longer than the warp-out time, so the farmer is again 100% safe.
And they ARE coming back. They’re back for 5 seconds and see what’s on there screen. They see that juicy bait staring them in the face. They see the smack talk in local. They may choose to ignore it… but they see it.
They aren’t seeing anything. They don’t see the bait because they don’t run d-scan, they don’t see local because it’s minimized. All they see is a brief flash of space background while they make a single click, and then they see whatever else they were doing in their other window.
And quite frankly 95% of the AFK campers won’t do what you describe. There are much more likely things a semi-afk person will do instead… because camping is so mind numbingly boring that it’s not worth even that level of investment… especially for those 20+ account system campers.
They won’t do this, because currently there is no need to briefly switch back and make that single click. But in your proposed system that’s exactly what would start to happen. That is, for the people who don’t build mouse bumping robots or whatever to automate the process.
And you should be terrified of the world in which they don’t start doing it, because it’s one in which everyone has decided that the loss of AFK cloaking means that engaging with PvE farmers is no longer possible or worth attempting, and nullsec PvE farming will have truly become 100% risk-free.
Defining an empty chair as a “player” is hard for me to grasp.
Then perhaps EVE, a game where large parts of gameplay happen while your character is not even logged in, is not the game for someone with such limited intellectual capabilities as yourself?
But really, this just highlights the problem. You’re obsessing over the purity of the definition of “player” in some weird abstract philosophical sense instead of considering the practical gameplay effects, or how EVE is not a conventional WoW-clone MMO. And you’re expecting everyone to accept your obsession as universal truth, the default belief that everyone must share unless they can prove otherwise.
I play multiplayer games in order to play a game in cooperation or competition with other players.
I play single player games if I don’t want to interact with other people.
Your “abstract philosophical sense” comments are simple BS. There’s no philosophy going on here. The point of a game with more than one player is to play the game with or against others who are playing the game. This isn’t an oddball definition… it’s the standard one.
You can continue try to insult my intelligence all you like, but you’re essentially arguing for the importance of someone being able to “play” or appear to play a game while asleep. I find someone who believes it’s important to have sleeping people “play” the game and thinks the people against that concept are of “limited intellectual capability” are in fact not quite all there (or just not being honest).
And in EVE, as I keep trying to tell you, this “playing” often involves players who are AFK, or even offline entirely. For example, you are buying items on the market from someone who is probably not even logged in. Your industry jobs are competing with production by someone who set their stuff up and went AFK. Etc. Your theory that “playing the game” means clicking the mouse at least X times per hour is obviously false when applied to EVE.
Perhaps if this sort of interaction is not something you enjoy the conclusion is that EVE is not the game for you?
I find someone who believes it’s important to have sleeping people “play” the game and thinks the people against that concept are of “limited intellectual capability” are in fact not quite all there (or just not being honest).
Hey, it’s not my fault you admitted that you’re too stupid to grasp the concept of playing against an empty chair, as very often happens in EVE. And I don’t think it’s important to have AFK players in this context for the sake of having AFK players, I think it’s important to have that ability as a counter to local. If you remove local you can have your AFK flag and I don’t care. Of course if you remove local there will be no need for an AFK flag anymore because nobody will bother to stay logged in when they go AFK while cloaked.
Why do people think there is some sot of universal or objectively true ethics and epistemology? I appreciate and respect that you think it’s good to use bad to fight bad, but I do not think that way. We can’t make an argument from the majority, because that’s not how these things work, and even if we could, tbh most people don’t even know what ethics or epistemology they agree with and take contradictory positions.
It means to interact, there are lots of ways to interact other than the small subset you have offered as exclusive.
False, read the EULA, you have given them permission to do just that.:
D. MONITORING
You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.
They can’t use that information for any reason other than to see if you are breaking the EULA, but they can scan your computer for whatever they want. (If you disagree with this, you should send them an email telling them you disagree with the EULA and don’t accept it any more.)
You do realize that humans don’t produce results like a random generator, right?
Okay, so the goal of AFK cloaking is met if the nullbear farmer/bot is able to farm for 22 hours/day but you are able to catch them and kill them once? This would be meeting the “primary goal,” just without the side effect. Okay, I understand you perfectly clear now. Unless you meant the goal is to stop them farming by killing them, which is stopping them from farming.
What do Alpha accounts have to do with this? This has nothing to do with anything we’ve been talking about.
No, I know the pathetic parasite doesn’t exist in a vacuum, that’s the whole point of the discussion, we are talking about the effect he has on people who are actually playing the game.
So we agree that the AFK “player,” can’t. Because when he comes back, he is no longer AFK. And unless he was running a bot of some sort, he has no idea what happened while he was AFK.
By undetectable, I meant that then don’t send any input signals to CCP’s servers, not truly undetectable. Sorry for the imprecise word choice.
It’s a question, not a claim.
Of course you wouldn’t, it raises the value of your ISK. Doesn’t effect me that much, because I don’t sell my ISK.
No, that isn’t the argument I’ve set up at all. The list had nothing to do with establishing the “bad.” Let’s use an example:
Your computer/router has a firewall, and by default all the ports are closed and you only open the ones that you have a good reason to open. You don’t need to prove a specific threat on any port to justify not opening it.
AFK cannot be used to play the game, you cannot play while AFK. Remember you are fond of saying and AFK cloaker doesn’t “do anything.” The reason to allow access to the servers is to play the game. So there is no good reason to allow the AFK account to stay connected. I don’t have to prove any bad things. The list were hypotheticals that we could imagine as bad uses of the connection which has no good (play) reason for being there.
And to save you the trouble of typing up a reply about how the AFK cloaker has paid to access the servers and it doesn’t matter if they are playing or not, let me go ahead and cite you the EULA:
2-A “…Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation…”
9- A. Software License
Subject to the terms of the EULA, CCP grants you a limited, non-exclusive, revocable license to use the Software and its accompanying documentation solely in connection with accessing the System in order to play EVE using a single valid Account.
9-B. License to Access the System to Play the Game
Upon establishing a valid Account, and subject to your continued compliance with the EULA, CCP grants you a limited, non-exclusive, revocable license to access the System, and to access and use the Game Content and User Content (each as defined below), in order to play EVE online. You may download (and, to the extent permitted by the System, make a single copy for your own purposes in playing the Game) and exchange Game Content and User Content exclusively via a valid Account, solely to play the Game, for purposes permitted by, and in a manner consistent with, the EULA.
If you are not playing the game, you have no right to access the servers. The fact that CCP does not currently enforce this, does not give you any rights either. That would be like saying that because cops don’t pull you over for a few ticks over the speed limit, it’s legal to do so.
I have never suggested cloaks are the problem, nor have I in this thread supported any changes to cloaking modules. I could support some changes, but not for the purpose of ending AFK cloaking. Cloaking is not the problem, AFK is the problem.
Because it’s in the definition of “AFK.” When @Lena_Crews says “he’s not playing” she didn’t say anything about what she can or cannot know. I he is AFK, then he is not playing. If he is playing, but looks AFK, then he is not AFK. “Playing” requires being ATK.
Why do people think “I can’t detect a difference” means “there is no difference”?
False, the EULA says your license exists for you to play the game. AFK is not playing. So, you burden of proof is on you as to why non-playing accounts should be allowed to maintain a connection. (see above)
To fit with your previous examples this would have to be an option (mostly likely not free) where you can select “logout but keep showing me in local” or “logout, but stay in space.” Then this would fit with the other things that can be set and ignored. (Also, I’d fully support this idea, because as I’ve said many times before, I don’t have a problem with local, or a name showing in local, only AFK, and all AFK.)
Turning off all the servers prevents bots from farming with impunity. You don’t want to support bots, do you?
Just because someone disagrees with you regarding how to solve a problem, doesn’t mean they are supporting the problem.
I suggested no such thing. The volumes of text you post about ISK and the ISK market, suggests that of course you would take the position you did. Then I gave the reason I don’t look at it that way.
I don’t spend the time of a part time job obsessing over the value of ISK, because it is fictional. I don’t have any mental health problems that effect my ability to distinguish fiction from reality. If I did have such a problem, or if it were not just fictional, then I could see myself investing that much time, but I don’t, so I don’t.
Did you just make a real life threat against my life? I’m now scared for my life. Your threat is just as real and creditable as “feel free to use your hands by typing here,” “While you still can.”
Still having trouble with words and logic, I see. “playing the game” is “doing something,” but that doesn’t mean “doing something” has to be “playing the game.” If you are working or skiing a mountain side, you are “doing something” but neither of those is “playing the game.” in this case “effecting” is not “playing” even though they are both “doing.” Let me give an example:
In the last match of the season (assume no play-offs) team A is playing team B, the other teams in the league have all finished their games. If team A wins the game, they will be tied with team C in first place, and then the winner will be determined by the goal differential. At the start of the match, team A trails team C by 2 goals, so if they win by 1 they still finish second, but if they win by 3 they are the winners of the league.
No one in their right mind would suggest that team C is playing in the match between team A and B, but they are certainly affecting it as team A will not just try to win, but to beat the spread.
God you’re pathetic. I was going to write up an explanation of why you continue to be wrong, but honestly, after this sad little display you aren’t even worth it.
In fairness, the threat to me isn’t the same as gigX’s threat to The Judge. In both cases neither one said “I will…”, so that is the same, and clearly not a requirement for CCP to consider a wish of physical harm as a threat. Also, in both cases the threat was made in a public way that is visible to the whole world.
The difference is that the threat I received actually wished me to “die in a fire” this is unarguably real life harm. In the case of gigX, he never said anything about cutting off hands as everyone likes to claim.
“The Judge feel free to use your hands by typing here,”
Last I checked typing (with some exceptions) is done with the use of the hands. No threat here, just a request to actually say something, instead of sitting silent.
“While you still can.”
Still can what? “Type here.” Well, certainly having your hands cut off would mean you couldn’t type there or anywhere. But it is also not the only means by which someone could lose the ability to type here, when “here” is a corp/fleet/alliance chat. Once someone is kicked out, they would no longer be able to type there.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to think that gigX meant he’d cut of the hands, but it isn’t exactly what he said. On the other hand (no pun intended) the threat to me was very clear about a wish for my death, and the means about how it would happen.
The other major difference is that in one case it was a Goon (collaborator) who was being threatened, and in the other it is a Goon who is doing the threatening.
Yes, it also prevents legitimate players from playing and prevents CCP from making money (why pay for the subscription if I can’t play). AFK cloaking does nothing of the sort. It only has any effect on
Bots.
Weak / dumb players that can’t stand risk.
Neither have any business in nullsec / in the game.
He’s an economist and is, for some weird reason that is beyond me, wasting his time trying to educate you. A futile attempt, of course.
Marvelous. You perfectly nailed your problem. The next step is acceptance.
Did you think that was in anyway a serious suggestion?
It was a hyperbolic example example that just because someone disagree with the proposed “solution” doesn’t mean they support the problem.
I thought I directly said that, but that might have been beyond your reading comprehension
And AFK doesn’t have any business in any game.
He claims to be an economist. But since he can’t quite distinguish between “real value” and “price” (a loaf of bread 50 years ago compared to now, would have very different prices, but the real value would be close (I didn’t actually look this up, it’s hypothetical)) I’m not sure I’m buying his “online resume.”
So, failing to comprehend an implied meaning is “just fine”? You know that’s literally on the test to get out of high school in some places. I guess it depends on your idea of “just fine.”
Sure he is, that’s why he went on for about six posts taking every time I said “value” to mean something like how much you appreciate something. Then when I pushed it with a lose definition of “real value” he sad that was called “price”. Only then when I pointed out how he was missing a concept that any first year economics student would grasp, and directly cited to him the term “real value”, that he said that he knew what it was. Before that he didn’t think that any from of “value” could have a real monetary value. So, yeah, I’m still not convinced.
What is the world view advise from the dating coach? Are you trying to tell me that I can’t expect rational reasons from you because you fit that personality type?
LOL, really?
Other than this being a meme for insults on the EvE forums, has it ever occurred to you that anyone projecting that condition on anyone else, is actually more likely to be suffering it themselves?
Oh, if that’s your point, well then I think the “toll bait” would have been:
So, that would be you.
Okay, now that we have established that, and that Teckos is a “real” economist, and that you are a “real” psychologist who can magically diagnose people via a fictional character driven on-line forums, can we get back to the topic about AFK being bad?
Or do you just want to post memes? But I guess that’s all you have when you can’t follow a logical line of thought.
I never claimed to be a psychologist, merely pointed out what ■■■■■■■■ you produce in every thread you post in.
Doesn’t really take much to see you for what you are.
The topic is about afk cloaks, not about afk in general. Just another example of your inability to comprehend.
Well I can’t directly say it without you breaking out in tears and running off to CCP to whine about how the big, bad Linus told you the truth.
It’s really funny how you manage to twist every sentence to fit your narrative, while the actual meaning behind it completely eludes you. Hence any remotely serious discussion with you would be doomed from the start, thus I don’t even bother. But of course you didn’t manage to grasp that even after I explicitly mentioned it.
Any remotely intelligent person would have never taken the troll bait in the first place, but you sir even keep going after I told you about it.
