Main AFK cloaky thread

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
1430

All ships that are relevant in PvE have either MJDs or enough raw speed to out-run a cloaked ship. Perhaps try not camping motionless on the warp-in point while farming?

And if it doesn’t have a gate?

Then you use something besides decloak cans. Or you decide that un-gated sites are too risky for you and run only gated sites.

Same as it’s been all along: auto-win PvP.

Auto-win PvP is the inevitable result of any reasonable PvP system. If your ship can succeed in a 10v1 gank then it’s going to be god-mode and unbeatable in a 1v1 fight. Please think before making stupid posts.

And not just auto-win, but engaging players who don’t want to PvP and giving them no chance to use skill to survive.

They have a chance to use skill to survive, that’s why good PvE players don’t get caught and killed (or at least not often enough to meaingfully slow down their profits). What you are demanding is not a chance to use skill to survive, it’s an automatic win button that lets them opt out of PvP with a 100% success rate because anything less is “not fair”.

PS: EVE is a PvP game. If you don’t want to PvP then please unsubscribe and go find a different game.

1431

All ships that are relevant in PvE have either MJDs or enough raw speed to out-run a cloaked ship.

This is funny.

Then you use something besides decloak cans. Or you decide that un-gated sites are too risky for you and run only gated sites.

Oh right so rather than fix OP cloaks and bubbles, deny content to PvErs.

And this is only a small part of the problem which you can’t even fix properly.

What you are demanding is not a chance to use skill to survive, it’s an automatic win button that lets them opt out of PvP with a 100% success rate because anything less is “not fair”.

Maybe if you had read a bit further, you’d know you were wrong on this too.

I do far more PvP than PvE. Actually about 3x more.

There should be a risk for doing PvE in low security zones.
But you should always have a chance of escaping.

That chance should be based on:
How well equipped you are vs the threat
How skilful the ganker is
How alert you are

Auto-win PvP is the inevitable result of any reasonable PvP system.

I’m just going to quote your own words back at you. I can’t make your argument look any more stupid than it already does.

1432

Sorry, I missed capitals, but if your carrier is losing 1v1 to a single cloaked ship then you have bigger problems than a lack of MJD. But battleships and command ships can fit MJDs, T3s and HACs are fast enough to just out-run the cloaked ship and prevent it from ever closing into tackle range. What PvE ship are you thinking of that can’t do either of these things?

Oh right so rather than fix OP cloaks and bubbles, deny content to PvErs.

The content is not denied just because it isn’t 100% safe. You can accept a degree of risk and farm that content, or you can choose to limit your farming options to the safest ones.

But you should always have a chance of escaping.

You do. PvE targets that are paying attention and aware that they are in a PvP game are actually very hard to catch. We don’t need to make escape even easier to pander to really stupid and/or lazy PvE farmers who can’t bother to use the tools they already have.

I’m just going to quote your own words back at you. I can’t make your argument look any more stupid than it already does.

It’s only “stupid” if you don’t understand PvP or EVE. No balanced ship can survive a 100v1 gank, period. Anything that could possibly survive a 100v1 gank would be blatantly overpowered and an automatic win in a 1v1, and completely break the game. Therefore a 100v1 will always be an auto-win for the side with the 100 players.

The only way around this is to put arbitrary limits on engagement sizes, so that only one ship at a time can attack you, and that is completely against core concepts of EVE.

1433

prevent it from ever closing into tackle range.

Oh you mean the tackle range that the cloaked ship can easily be in before you can ever possibly know about it?

What PvE ship are you thinking of that can’t do either of these things?

Cruisers and destroyers mostly. And if they’re webbed and scrammed they won’t be able to get away.

And that’s just PvE ships. Then there’s mining ships, scouting ships, industrial ships etc etc

The content is not denied just because it isn’t 100% safe. You can accept a degree of risk and farm that content, or you can choose to limit your farming options to the safest ones.

Or you can fix cloaks and bubbles and laugh at the whining of the people who can’t get kills without autowin.

1434

You do understand that the cloaked ship moves slow under cloak, right? And that you don’t have to sit motionless on the warp-in point? Turn your MWD on, burn in a random direction, laugh as the cloaked ship moving at 10% of your speed has zero chance of ever catching you.

Cruisers and destroyers mostly. And if they’re webbed and scrammed they won’t be able to get away.

Cruisers and destroyers are not relevant in PvE. They have no dps and no sane player would ever fly them outside of highsec level 1s (where cloaks and bubbles are irrelevant).

Or you can fix cloaks and bubbles and laugh at the whining of the people who can’t get kills without autowin.

Bubbles and cloaks are not auto-win. The only “fix” is for you to find a different game and stop whining about how anything less than 100% safety in PvE farming is “auto-win”.

1435

laugh as the cloaked ship moving at 10% of your speed has zero chance of ever catching you.

Laughing at that ship that isn’t there 99.99% of the time?

Cruisers and destroyers are not relevant in PvE.

Again quoted for self-evident stupidity.

And of course, you skipped over every single other type of ship activity in the game.

Bubbles and cloaks are not auto-win.

Even if your egoic need for autowin PvP wasn’t obvious, your naked assertion would still be utterly irrelevant to the debate.

But I’m going to grab some popcorn whilst we drag this thread away from your deviations:

What possible downside is there to increasing the decloak radius?
Why does the game need ships that can warp whilst invisible?

1436

Guess what: paranoia keeps you alive in nullsec. But of course you’re always free to assume that the cloaked ship isn’t there, and take greater risks.

Again quoted for self-evident stupidity.

Ok, if it’s “self-evident stupidity” then post a destroyer fit that is anything but a complete waste of time in nullsec PvE. Go on, explain how a class with paper tank and poor dps is supposed to compete with proper farming ships.

And what other ship activity is relevant? Barges and haulers and such are not combat ships, and survive by either avoiding combat entirely or having escorts that can keep a threat from engaging. The fact that a non-combat ship like a barge or hauler loses in PvP against a combat ship is EVE working as intended.

Even if your egoic need for autowin PvP wasn’t obvious, your naked assertion would still be utterly irrelevant to the debate.

It’s a lot more than just an assertion, I’ve backed it up with examples of how to defeat both of those things. But apparently anything short of “PvE is 100% safe” is considered auto-win.

What possible downside is there to increasing the decloak radius?

Primarily gatecamps get much more effective, as staying cloaked long enough to escape is more difficult. If you increase it to stupid distances cloaked PvP becomes impossible, but we’ll assume that you aren’t going to suggest something stupid like a 50km radius.

Why does the game need ships that can warp whilst invisible?

Because d-scan exists, and a ship that can’t warp while cloaked has no use for a cloak. Removing the ability to warp while cloaked would just remove 99% of cloaking, in the process making PvE much safer.

1437

This just makes you look ridiculous.

And weren’t you leaving this thread? Just no follow through…

1438

This just makes you look ridiculous.

Someone else who needs autowin PvP calls something they can’t argue against “ridiculous”…

1439

Your argument is moronic. Bubbles do not mean autowin. Cloaks do not mean autowin. You want us to believe that putting a cloak on a ship means it will aways win? Really? Please tell me you are not this much of a liar.

1 Like
1440

Go on, explain how a class with paper tank and poor dps is supposed to compete with proper farming ships.

Firstly, they’re competing with rats.
Secondly, many players lack the SP to fly anything else.

And what other ship activity is relevant? Barges and haulers and such are not combat ships, and survive by either avoiding combat entirely

You mean by staying docked? :rofl:

or having escorts that can keep a threat from engaging.

So having someone sit around in a PvP ship doing nothing for 4 hours.

The fact that a non-combat ship like a barge or hauler loses in PvP against a combat ship is EVE working as intended.

If it’s deliberately auto-lose, it’s terrible game design.

It’s a lot more than just an assertion, I’ve backed it up with examples of how to defeat both of those things.

You’ve explained there are non-obvious ways to counter a narrow portion of the threat.

But apparently anything short of “PvE is 100% safe” is considered auto-win.

You’re just being dishonest now because you’ve finally noticed you’ve lost the argument.

What possible downside is there to increasing the decloak radius?

Primarily gatecamps get much more effective, as staying cloaked long enough to escape is more difficult.

Gatecamps should be nerfed anyway. Horrible gameplay design. I’d guarantee invisibility within 7.5km of a gate.

If you increase it to stupid distances cloaked PvP becomes impossible, but we’ll assume that you aren’t going to suggest something stupid like a 50km radius.

Correct. I think I suggested 10km as a starting point but it should probably depend on the ship size.

Removing the ability to warp while cloaked would just remove 99% of cloaking, in the process making PvE much safer.

It would certainly remove a lot of PvP cloaking and no great loss there. I don’t care whether PvE is safer, only whether they have a chance to get away.

At the same time, there needs to be much more consensual PvP content and not the usual large gang rubbish.

1441

No, the players are competing with rats (and with each other). The ships are competing with the alternative farming ships, and a destroyer is never a good choice for that role.

And sure, many players lack SP. Those players belong in highsec doing low-end content, they aren’t going to be out farming in nullsec. Newbies aren’t entitled to access to high-end content.

You mean by staying docked?

Scouts, staying aligned, etc. Why is this so hard for you?

So having someone sit around in a PvP ship doing nothing for 4 hours.

Your choice. Do you want safety or do you want constant action?

If it’s deliberately auto-lose, it’s terrible game design.

No, it’s fine game design. Haulers are non-combat ships with no weapons on them. The fact that they lose 99% of the time in PvP is perfectly acceptable, because if you get a hauler into combat you have already screwed up. Stop whining that your unarmed ship can’t match up to a PvP warship.

Gatecamps should be nerfed anyway. Horrible gameplay design. I’d guarantee invisibility within 7.5km of a gate.

Lolno. Gatecamps may deserve a bit of a nerf, but making escape from one effectively automatic is just plain stupid.

It would certainly remove a lot of PvP cloaking and no great loss there. I don’t care whether PvE is safer, only whether they have a chance to get away.

They already have a chance to get away. Stop whining about stupid and/or lazy PvE farmers getting killed.

At the same time, there needs to be much more consensual PvP content and not the usual large gang rubbish.

GTFO and go back to WoW. EVE is all about non-consensual PvP.

1442

Or maybe you could rat while in a standing fleet, on comms, and even in a group in PvP fit ships. Yes, it lowers your ISK efficiency, but it is better than 0 ISK/hour.

Using the terms auto-lose and auto-win is an extremely stupid thing to write.

Actually your continual use of the terms auto-win/auto-lose highlights your own intellectual dishonesty here.

Tell us how putting a cloak on a an arazu makes it invincible? That is what auto-win means, by the way. Auto-win means “win automatically”–i.e. it is invincible.

Gates are natural and obvious choke points so camping them is almost surely going be a thing. Further, gate camps is one method to limit both AFK and ATK cloaking.

It also nerfs the use of cloaks for non-combat uses as well. Why should the players using cloaks in those instances have their game nerfed?

You consent to PvP when you undock…so no, there is plenty of it already.

1443

Newbies aren’t entitled to access to high-end content.

And PvPers aren’t entitled to autowin ganking.

So having someone sit around in a PvP ship doing nothing for 4 hours.

Your choice. Do you want safety or do you want constant action?

I want fixed cloaks and bubbles.

If it’s deliberately auto-lose, it’s terrible game design.

No, it’s fine game design.

Auto-lose is always terrible game design. It’s probably the worst example of it.

Lolno. Gatecamps may deserve a bit of a nerf, but making >escape from one effectively automatic is just plain stupid.

If you can think of a better way to do it?
Fighting at a gate is fine. It’s groups of PvP ships setting up long gatecamps which is stupidly lame.

They already have a chance to get away.

If they have an MJD fitted.

And whilst we’re on the subject, clicking one button or pressing one key to avoid PvP is also bad game design.

EVE is all about non-consensual PvP.

I’m hoping CCP disagree. I know other game designers and most of their players do.

Also there’s various levels of consent. Undocking is say consent level 1. Leaving HS is level 2, staying uncloaked in any LS area is level 3 and all are quite far from the the level that is being prepared for PvP.

1444

They aren’t, and they don’t have it. Catching a competent PvE player is actually fairly difficult. It’s only auto-win against lazy and/or incompetent players, and those players should always lose.

Auto-lose is always terrible game design. It’s probably the worst example of it.

{citation needed}

Why should an unarmed transport ship be capable of winning a fight against a high-end warship, if the transport’s pilot is careless enough to get caught in the first place?

If they have an MJD fitted.

MWD, staying aligned, watching local, watching d-scan. A MJD is just one option, conveniently one that the most effective PvE ships are already fitting because it’s so effective in PvE.

I’m hoping CCP disagree. I know other game designers and most of their players do.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

JFC this is quite possibly the single dumbest thing I’ve read on these forums. Do you honestly not know the history of EVE? It’s a game created by a bunch of old-school MMO gankers to be the kind of PvP game they enjoyed, with a deliberate intent that PvP does not require consent. If you think EVE’s non-consensual PvP is going to change, well, I don’t know what to say to that level of delusion.

Also there’s various levels of consent. Undocking is say consent level 1. Leaving HS is level 2, staying uncloaked in any LS area is level 3 and all are quite far from the the level that is being prepared for PvP.

No, there is exactly one level of consent: creating an EVE account. When you do that you consent to PvP. The only question is how much killing you is going to cost, a question that depends on what security level you’re in.

1445

Catching a competent PvE player is actually fairly difficult.

Actually stupidly easy with an interceptor, even solo. I’ve done it dozens of times on my PvP alt.

The only real problem is actually finding targets.

Auto-lose is always terrible game design. It’s probably the worst example of it.

{citation needed}

Take your pick:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=game+design+balancing
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=agency+in+game+design

Why should an unarmed transport ship be capable of winning a fight against a high-end warship, if the transport’s pilot is careless enough to get caught in the first place?

They shouldn’t. They should pretty much never win. But they should have a chance of escaping through skill.

MWD, staying aligned, watching local, watching d-scan. A MJD is just one option, conveniently one that the most effective PvE ships are already fitting because it’s so effective in PvE.

MWD ineffective vs bubble/scram/disruptor.
You can’t even stay aligned in this game.
No local in W-space.
D-scan and overview are the only thing, don’t detect cloaked and you have to manually trigger the former.

1446

It’s stupidly easy to catch incompetent players. Competent players will be aligning out the moment you appear in local, and it’s impossible to reach them faster than they can align out and warp to a station (where they are 100% safe). The fact that you can catch careless players who don’t bother to watch for threats does not mean that no chance of escape exists.

They shouldn’t. They should pretty much never win. But they should have a chance of escaping through skill.

They do have a chance of escaping through skill. What you seem to be demanding is even more chances to escape through skill, that even when they have failed to take advantage of their chances to escape and allowed a combat ship to tackle their transport they should continue to get more and more chances to escape. And that’s just nonsense.

MWD ineffective vs bubble/scram/disruptor.

Lolwut. Bubbles don’t shut off MWDs, scrams/disruptors require you to be uncloaked and have a lock. A cloaked ship trying to chase you to get into attack range while you MWD away at 1km/s or more can not use any of those things.

You can’t even stay aligned in this game.

Lolwut. Stop being bad at EVE.

1447

Good thing there is nothing that is autowin.

Is this the only thing you got in your tool box? Auto-win/auto-lose?

1448

Competent players will be aligning out the moment you appear in local

Which doesn’t exist in W-space.

The fact that you can catch careless players who don’t bother to watch for threats does not mean that no chance of escape exists.

Sorry but warping out every minute just isn’t a sane option. This is of course why I get so many kills.

They do have a chance of escaping through skill.

Nope. If you’re scrammed and webbed/slow, the only chances of escaping are getting close to a gate/WH or someone helping you. Oh and you need enough tank to survive that long.

What you seem to be demanding is even more chances to escape through skill, that even when they have failed to take advantage of their chances to escape and allowed a combat ship to tackle their transport they should continue to get more and more chances to escape. And that’s just nonsense.

This is just gibberish and probably a strawman.

Instead of hallucinating what I’m demanding, why not just ask?

You can’t even stay aligned in this game.

Lolwut. Stop being bad at EVE.

It’s true. You can’t align at 0m/s.

1449

Wow, you truly are a special snowflake. The only wormholers who complains about cloaks. I’ve seen it all now.

You are living in the most dangerous part of the game, where cloaked ships thrive due to local not giving you away. If you want the safety of local, go back to K-space.