People who disregard others’ words usually have no idea what has been said.
But they are not in system with you.
You don’t know they are safe, you just assume it because you aren’t shooting them yourself. You entire argument is based on illogical and false assumptions and has holes in it that a toddler could point out.
You can want to kill whomever you want, but what you are begging for is the game to hold your hand so you can kill people who aren’t in space with you. You are upset because they don’t want to play the game with you, and leave space rather than do so.
If another player isn’t in space with you, you have nothing to say about it. It’s not your business at all. You don’t matter in the slightest, nor should they matter to you.
Why does that matter?
You don’t know they are safe, you just assume it because you aren’t shooting them yourself.
JFC you’re an idiot. I assume it because on average they are safe. The mechanics that effectively guarantee their safety in the absence of cloaking are universal in nullsec. It’s not like some other player has immunity to local and can put that PvE farmer in danger in a way that I am not doing. No matter who is or isn’t there farming in nullsec is effectively 100% safe if you are even marginally competent at the game.
You can want to kill whomever you want, but what you are begging for is the game to hold your hand so you can kill people who aren’t in space with you.
…
No, you’re just illiterate. I have stated explicitly that my failure to kill a target is an acceptable outcome. What matters is the reason for that failure. Failure because the target out-maneuvered me, played evasively, and did their farming without allowing me to get within tackle range is fine. Failure because local makes it virtually impossible to catch a competent PvE player is not. Neither is removing one of the few counters to local.
You are upset because they don’t want to play the game with you, and leave space rather than do so.
No, I am upset that they are able to make billions of ISK farming endgame PvE content with negligible risk. If they choose to avoid playing the game with me and leave space to do so that’s fine, but they should actually have to leave space. They can go back to highsec, preferably with level 4 missions no longer existing there.
The problem is that, in your world, they can leave space momentarily, press the “remove cloaked threat” button, and then go right back to farming. Unlike the current system, where docking to avoid PvP potentially means forfeiting months of PvE income, there is no real price to be paid for their safety.
If another player isn’t in space with you, you have nothing to say about it. It’s not your business at all. You don’t matter in the slightest, nor should they matter to you.
Nope. That’s not how game design works. We design universal mechanics for the entire game based on what works well everywhere, not just the people currently in the same system with us. Risk vs. reward is a thing that needs to be balanced for everyone, just like you can comment on ship balance changes for a ship you are not actively flying at the moment.
Reading is fundamental. Try it.
By pressing the ‘removed cloaked threat’ button you mean the cloaker got hunted down and shot?
That sounds a whole lot like how EVE is supposed to work.
Ceptors catch ratters everyday
You crying here shows that you need to find a different profession or you need to practice more
Ceptor training at 1700 eve time dont forget bro
No, I mean all of your idiotic proposals which are essentially “there’s a button I press that turns off your cloak, and then I warp to you and kill you”. There is no skill or hunting down involved, only pressing a button to guarantee a kill.
Now, maybe you someday come up with an idea that isn’t so stupid, but I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Look what happens when elite pvpers dont get easy kills… they start to insult everyone on a public forum 
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"No, I am upset that they are able to make billions of ISK farming endgame PvE content with negligible risk. "
That’s kind of the payoff for taking space, developing it by installing upgrades in the space you control and preventing others from taking it from you.
You conquer and control it and dominate the space so nobody else has structures in it but you… you get to farm it. That’s not insignificant effort.
The way to take away an alliance’s farms shouldn’t be making it really easy to kill the farmers. It should be for you to take their farming grounds (or burn them). I don’t think that the amount of isk they make is justification for this type of change. Look how long it’s taking PL to take Providence. It takes a lot of effort (and isk) to take and keep space in Eve. There should be a reward for doing that. Being able to farm that space is that reward.
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This is so simplistic.
This issue is not just “I want free kills” nor should it be “I want uninterrupted ratting.” The problem is that local is such a good intel tool that it removes quite a bit of potential interaction between players. If local is removed and an alternative method of acquiring intel is put in I am not going to be upset when players use that intel to:
- Get safe while mining, ratting, etc.
- Use that intel to try and kill me.
- Use that intel to warn others.
That is completely and totally acceptable and what makes the game fun and interesting. The idea that I want to simply shoot fish in a barrel is a recipe for disaster for the long term health of the game. Shooting fish in a barrel can be fun for about 15 minutes then I’m bored and am looking for something else to do. I don’t think I would be alone in this.
For those who do not like PvP and think being even more insulated from PvP will also regret it. Their activities in game will become boring and far less rewarding. As “PvE” activities like mining, ratting and building become more prevalent it will cause all sorts of problems for these players and ultimately they too will leave.
When you look at animals in certain experiments and a “utopia” is created for them they die out. They do not flourish and thrive. My guess is that since competition and struggle is part of our evolutionary process and our daily lives when all of that is stripped away we do not know what to do and go so far as to start to try and bring those aspects back into whatever “society” we are in.
Long story short, these simple one liners and attempts to try and make one’s game time less competitive and less of a struggle vis-a-vis other players is a serious game design mistake.
So Mike…kindly write down what you wrote on the forums on a piece of paper, crumple it up and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine as it is really stupid and later when you take a dump those statements will be where they rightfully deserve to be…in the toilet.
Edit:
To be clear, I’d like the alternative source of intel to be vulnerable to disruption. Being destroyed, maybe being hacked and either turned against the people who anchored it, etc. My current view is that local is a problem because those who want to hunt ratters, miners, etc. because it is invulnerable to disruption (except by AFK cloaking and that is quite sub-optimal).
Edit II:
To build on my point because some people here are either really, really stupid or are being deliberately obtuse…
Even if the “alternative to local” pretty much gave back local, but was now vulnerable in at least some way (being destroyed, turned off when entosis’d, hacked, whatever), directionally that would be and improvement, IMO.
And frankly, I don’t see the objection to this. I just don’t. My guess is because some people have such dense skulls I couldn’t get the idea through said skull even using a roofing hammer.
Consider for a moment one possible variation on this idea:
Local is delayed
You anchor the Observatory Array. It is yours. You and your alliance, maybe even your allies (i.e. blues) can now see local as if it were not delayed. Now would you dimbulbs kindly read that last part again. Oh feck it, let me help you:
You and your alliance, maybe even your allies (i.e. blues) can now see local as if it were not delayed.
The hostile coming in…he can’t see you in local. He will have to rely on the UI, d-scan and maybe probes.
Of course, if he has some buddies with him and everyone in the system ratting, mining, etc. buggers off and turtles up…then he and his buddies are now free to burn your OA down and leave you as blind as they are.
Of course, AFK cloaking would still be a thing. In this scenario I’d even be happy with having probes being able to find a cloaked ship. It would take longer than with an uncloaked ship, but still, no more AFK cloaking. And now a determined foe can come in and make the lives miserable for those who are unwilling to protect their stuff/space.
Now, this is not how I’d ideally like to see the alternative work. I’d much rather have a structure with fitting options that creates trade offs and sets the game environment where emergent behavior can…well…emerge. Give us new and interesting ways to play and interact that we can’t get with something like local and cloaks as they are now.
If you read this and think “Teckos just wants easy kills…” Christ but you are really stupid.
Except it isn’t the payoff for taking space. Local doesn’t exist because you worked hard to claim space and defend it against the people who want to take it from you, it exists in every system, no matter how empty and neglected. You can move into a random empty system for the day and farm there with zero risk.
Your safety model is also bad in that it rewards passive defense (plant your flag on the map and the benefits are automatic) over active defense (have a 23/7 defense fleet that can slaughter anyone dumb enough to attack your farmers). It encourages a model of territory control where you slog through the sov mechanic and then passively farm, trusting that the sheer frustration of trying to grind structures is enough to keep anyone from interfering. It makes it way too easy for incompetent farmers to rent a system and do very little to defend it while making tons of ISK. And it replaces interesting conflict between raiders and defense fleets with “dock if there’s anything in local”.
It’s also bad because it excludes small-scale raiding and conflict. If you’re a solo or small group player you don’t get to participate, local keeps you from ever catching anything and your proposed AFK nerf removes the only way around local. Your version of the system requires everyone to join a big alliance that is capable of large-scale territory warfare and structure grinding, and that’s a terrible idea.
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Exactly right. Local works when I am in Sov NS of others…
Nobody has done anything to “earn local”. One could argue you paid a sub, but with Alphas even that really isn’t true anymore.
Did we really got to a point where pvpers whine instead of pve players?
You are one of the ones I consider invulnerable to roofing hammers…
But I think you like it that way.
Continue writing wall of tears dude
Most animals live far beyond there natural life expectancy in captivity as opposed to in the wild. (Cat’s, Dogs, mice, rats, snakes, birds, Alligators, crocodiles, etc. This goes for humans as well.
Look at Japan and look at America.
I live in America and my life expectancy is about 80 years, in Japan it would be around 98+…
Japan has an optimal living environment as opposed to America.
“When you look at animals in certain experiments " Key words (((”“certain experiments”")))
(Great whites don’t live well in a tank.)
Oh by the way…
You can leave a briefcase full of money in Japan on the side of the road and it will end up in the nearest lost and found box.
If you don’t install upgrades it’s not all that farm-able. Yes you can make some good isk, but not all that different from what you make in high sec and less than high-sec incursions. Kind of “billions” people talk about are only achieved from upgraded systems.
The ability to mooch off of others is kind of a hallmark of eve. Salvaging others’ missions, siphoning moon extractors, mining their moon goo (now), running their anoms or relic sites in their space… that’s just Eve. Yes, you can run someone else’s anoms if they’re ignoring them… but that’s on them. If they’re already farming them you’ll have a more difficult time… especially if they blow up any structure you try to operate out of.
People abandoning their payoff doesn’t change the fact that it’s theirs for the taking if they take sov and protect it.
And again… people say you can’t catch people in null without local… but every day you can look at Zkill and see tons of people who ARE caught anom running. You can claim “oh, that’s just stupid people”… but the fact is there are apparently quite a number of them. There are four full pages of VNI losses for today alone on zkill… and we had a patch kill some play time. Nearly all are in null… and while I’m not going to click on each one I’ll wager the vast majority are ratting ships.
People ARE killing ratters in bulk. Stupid or not… the targets are there and getting killed. Maybe you just aren’t very good at it.
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So… we should take local away from hunters and give it to locals who earned it?
Ooookaaaayyyy…
Talk about missing the point…
Thanks Capt. Obvious.
And how many are not being killed?
This epitomizes a major failing on the part of most people. All they focus on is what is “seen” they ignore the “unseen”. See for example the Broken Window parable by Bastiat.
In this case the the seen are the killmails for ratters and miners. Yes, we can all see those. What we don’t “see” are all those who get away. Not being able to see those who get away makes it harder to determine if things are balanced or not. There are some indirect methods to do it though.
Actually, if “local” becomes in some way vulnerable to disruption then that might actually be an improvement.
And how many were not even hunted at all? Tired of your nonsense
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Seen this way, renters should be free game and we would likely not be having this “discussion”.